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  # 1687769 14-Dec-2016 15:51
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MikeB4:

There are many places where the souls who have perished are left where they perished. The many warships and merchant marine ships from the two world wars are an example the oceans are their field of honour. The USS Arizona in Pearl Harbour still has the remains of lost sailors sealed in her hull. There is a permanent memorial above. The mine should be sealed and the site become a permanent memorial and the ground tapu. 



It is different during times of war, as it would be unsafe to retrieve them, as the risk of the retrieval also getting bombed would be very high. Also it was a very different time back then. But during modern war, such as the USA in the Middle East, they alway seem to bring the bodies of the dead soldiers back to the USA, where they can. That wouldn't be cheap to do, but obviously the families wouldn't be happy if they didn't.

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  # 1687773 14-Dec-2016 15:55
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I repeat my earlier statement that there is no way a rescue attempt isn't going to be made, no matter how many letters of waiver were signed or what promises were made, in the event a problem occurred during re-entry. We are at heart a pretty socialist country, and we (rightly or wrongly) wouldn't allow no action to be taken if there were a chance of recovery. To leave people to die if a rescue were in any way reasonable, would be a suicide pill for the current government.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1687781 14-Dec-2016 16:08
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I have always been on the side of the miners' family until yesterday...

 

My new suggestion - as soon as Winston enters the mine, we pour the concrete and seal the mine... LOL!!! On a serious note, good on Winston for reading the report commissioned by the pike river families. It seems like they have done extensive research! They deserve a chance to carry their own exploration - of course it has to be made clear that this has to be at their own responsibility. Anyone entering the mine must sign a waiver form etc...

 

 






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  # 1687782 14-Dec-2016 16:14
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They're dead, Jim... :-( 

I guess people just want to have all doubt removed....but why risk more lives? 

 

Counselling is less lethal. 

 

 





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  # 1687783 14-Dec-2016 16:15
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nakedmolerat:

 

They deserve a chance to carry their own exploration - of course it has to be made clear that this has to be at their own responsibility. Anyone entering the mine must sign a waiver form etc...

 

 

A waiver means absolutely nothing under our new H&S laws which is the point I've been trying to make.

 

You could have anybody entering the mine saying that if they're killed it's their own fault, but that means nothing under our new laws. The mine owners will ultimately be held liable for not ensuring that the workplace was safe.

 

 


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  # 1687789 14-Dec-2016 16:35
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sbiddle:

 

nakedmolerat:

 

They deserve a chance to carry their own exploration - of course it has to be made clear that this has to be at their own responsibility. Anyone entering the mine must sign a waiver form etc...

 

 

A waiver means absolutely nothing under our new H&S laws which is the point I've been trying to make.

 

You could have anybody entering the mine saying that if they're killed it's their own fault, but that means nothing under our new laws. The mine owners will ultimately be held liable for not ensuring that the workplace was safe.

 

 

...and they sign a waiver.....so you're not going to try to rescue them if they run into trouble? That's not going to happen that way.......





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  # 1687797 14-Dec-2016 16:44
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^^^^exactly, ypu cannot contract out of your responsibilities under the workplace H&S act


 
 
 
 


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  # 1687810 14-Dec-2016 17:37
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Seakiwi:

 

^^^^exactly, ypu cannot contract out of your responsibilities under the workplace H&S act

 

 

 

 

The intent of the new law is to protect works from things like Pike River happening again right, rather than the rescue attempt per-se. The govt could always update the law or pass some kind of one off waiver through parliament if they wanted. 





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  # 1687812 14-Dec-2016 17:43
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ajobbins:

 

Seakiwi:

 

^^^^exactly, ypu cannot contract out of your responsibilities under the workplace H&S act

 

 

 

 

The intent of the new law is to protect works from things like Pike River happening again right, rather than the rescue attempt per-se. The govt could always update the law or pass some kind of one off waiver through parliament if they wanted. 

 

 

 

 

If parliament has to pass a waiver to do this  then there is a risk. Putting more lives in harms way is an unacceptable high cost





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  # 1687816 14-Dec-2016 17:52
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ajobbins:

 

Seakiwi:

 

^^^^exactly, ypu cannot contract out of your responsibilities under the workplace H&S act

 

 

 

 

The intent of the new law is to protect works from things like Pike River happening again right, rather than the rescue attempt per-se. The govt could always update the law or pass some kind of one off waiver through parliament if they wanted. 

 

 

 

 

Not sure you can "rescue" a dead body.


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  # 1687818 14-Dec-2016 17:56
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That seems a bit dismissive of those who are grieving. I get a sense that at least some people feel they have not been given the full story, and that is why they are so determined to retrieve the remains. In any case, I think it is the business of the families now.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1687844 14-Dec-2016 19:13
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Pumpedd:

 

 

 

Not sure you can "rescue" a dead body.

 

 

Poor word choice - was in a hurry





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  # 1688936 14-Dec-2016 21:44
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MikeAqua:

 

ajobbins:

 

Forgive my ignorance - but what would (currently) prevent a motivated family member from putting on a hard hat, a BA and walking as far as they can into the drift?

 

 

Disclaimer: I'm trained in the use of BA and fully encapsulated gas suits in toxic environments and familiar with underwater re-breather apparatus but not anything more technical.

 

The families probably don't have access to the right gear. 

 

At the moment there is supposedly very little oxygen in the mine and it's predominantly methane.

 

Bad: Methane is toxic by inhalation or absorption.

 

Good: Methane can't burn by itself, it needs oxygen.

 

Bad: Exhaust gasses from a regular BA set contain plenty of oxygen (from exhaled air). 

 

So: You need BA, a fully encapsulated suit to protect your skin and a means of capturing exhaust oxygen.  So now you need a re-breather BA set.

 

Getting highly technical. People use them but you would need to know your stuff.  I would equate re-breather to parachutes.  Great if set up correctly. 

 

If set up wrong ...

 

 

 

 

Methane is not a toxic gas and can not be adsorbed thru the skin so a suit is not needed but it is an asphyxiant gas.

 

Mines rescue BA sets are closed circuit


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# 1688983 14-Dec-2016 22:34
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sbiddle:

 

 

 

Pre Pike River, yes. Now, no.

 

If you haven't read the new H&S regulations I suggest you do. The new law ensures the top of the food chain is to blame, and is a result of those unhappy that ultimately nobody was accountable for Pike River.

 

Some may argue a director of a company being in jail because an employee who they have no direct control over suffering an injury or death is very much over the top, but that's what the law now says.

 

 

 

Can people who aren't lawyers please stop their nonsensical commentaries on complex topics that are obviously not within their expertise? The law does not "en[sure that the top of the food chain is to blame]". The law penalises PCBUs and officers for, amongst other things, people dying or getting injured at work when they fail to take all practicable steps to prevent injuries or death. If the law somehow was designed to get at officers and directors first and foremost, it wouldn't feature s 36, which clearly states that a PCBU owes the primary duty of care.

 

 


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  # 1688986 14-Dec-2016 23:13
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dejadeadnz:

 

sbiddle:

 

 

 

Pre Pike River, yes. Now, no.

 

If you haven't read the new H&S regulations I suggest you do. The new law ensures the top of the food chain is to blame, and is a result of those unhappy that ultimately nobody was accountable for Pike River.

 

Some may argue a director of a company being in jail because an employee who they have no direct control over suffering an injury or death is very much over the top, but that's what the law now says.

 

 

 

Can people who aren't lawyers please stop their nonsensical commentaries on complex topics that are obviously not within their expertise? The law does not "en[sure that the top of the food chain is to blame]". The law penalises PCBUs and officers for, amongst other things, people dying or getting injured at work when they fail to take all practicable steps to prevent injuries or death. If the law somehow was designed to get at officers and directors first and foremost, it wouldn't feature s 36, which clearly states that a PCBU owes the primary duty of care.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty sure that the first practicable step in not having people die in PR is not to let them in there...






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