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  Reply # 1690954 16-Dec-2016 11:36
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Rikkitic:

I am not a psychologist but would still be interested to know what studies have been done that underpin this conclusion. I have only anecdotal evidence, including my own example, but there are plenty of people I know who smoked dope vigorously when they were young, grew out of it, and went on to do other things, like become psychologists, with no apparent ill effects. I have also seen plenty of damaged people but I don't know what the source of their damage was. I do admit to some concerns about the apparent difficulty young kiwi males seem to have with moderation and self-restraint. For me the bottom line continues to be that the only result here from years of criminalising drugs is that kiwis are apparently amongst the biggest drug users in the world. Prohibition hasn't worked. Something else needs to be tried.


 



Yes something else needs to be tried but that does not need to legalisation.

As for the studies etc I will ask my son I am not sure if he has the time. I do trust his judgement, he has a BSC, First Class Honours, MSC with distinction. He has been invited to complete his Doctorate in cognitive psychology.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 1690959 16-Dec-2016 11:42
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Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

The damage it causes is not a myth and he was saying that the damage is generational.

 

 

 

 

I'm very skeptical of the evidence for multi-generational (epigenetic) harm from marijuana (and other drugs).

 

The research seems to be funded by anti-drug agencies, carried out by zealots, very small-scale studies on rats/mice with dubious controls, and no reference point ("what other multi-generational harm / epigenetic change is caused by eating potatoes?").

 

Even when you look at how they attempted to assess behavioural change, they set up a test not to study general behaviour of rats, but by allowing them access to heroin and assessing how hard they'd work to get a "hit".  Others tried to suggest that multi-generational offspring from reefer-mad rats were fatter because they'd inherited an epigenetic change which gave them "the munchies".  Those seem like very weird tests, and strongly suggest bias and preconceived ideas by the researchers.  

 

You can find a research paper to "prove" just about anything you like.  What I didn't find in the articles I did read on the above, were comments and responses from independent peer reviewers.  

 

I'm not saying that marijuana isn't harmful, nor that there could be significant (to society) multigenerational epigenetic behavioural change from all kinds of different environmental exposures, but there are probably far bigger fish to fry than that one.  

 

 

The affects on the unborn foetus has been well documented along with the affects of alcohol.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1690960 16-Dec-2016 11:43
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networkn:

 

frankv:

 

MikeB4:

 

He said that anyone who believes marijuana is safe is delusional already. Just because other nations have screwed up does not mean we should follow.

 

 

Anyone who says *anything* is safe is delusional.

 

The fact that other nations are changing their policy means that they believe they screwed up in the past, and are correcting the perceived screw-up. Could it be that NZ screwed up when it followed the other screw-ups who banned marijuana?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prove this isn't safe. 

 

 

See, I am not delusional :) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well i suppose its a "safe" and it keeps items "safe" so it must be safe.... How this is relevant is beyond me..





 


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  Reply # 1690993 16-Dec-2016 11:55
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networkn:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I have only anecdotal evidence, including my own example, 

 

 

Well, erm, ummm... *cough*... 

 

:)

 

 

I thought you had departed this thread. Just can't stay away, can you?

 

 





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  Reply # 1691018 16-Dec-2016 11:58
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

The damage it causes is not a myth and he was saying that the damage is generational.

 

 

 

 

I'm very skeptical of the evidence for multi-generational (epigenetic) harm from marijuana (and other drugs).

 

The research seems to be funded by anti-drug agencies, carried out by zealots, very small-scale studies on rats/mice with dubious controls, and no reference point ("what other multi-generational harm / epigenetic change is caused by eating potatoes?").

 

Even when you look at how they attempted to assess behavioural change, they set up a test not to study general behaviour of rats, but by allowing them access to heroin and assessing how hard they'd work to get a "hit".  Others tried to suggest that multi-generational offspring from reefer-mad rats were fatter because they'd inherited an epigenetic change which gave them "the munchies".  Those seem like very weird tests, and strongly suggest bias and preconceived ideas by the researchers.  

 

You can find a research paper to "prove" just about anything you like.  What I didn't find in the articles I did read on the above, were comments and responses from independent peer reviewers.  

 

I'm not saying that marijuana isn't harmful, nor that there could be significant (to society) multigenerational epigenetic behavioural change from all kinds of different environmental exposures, but there are probably far bigger fish to fry than that one.  

 

 

The affects on the unborn foetus has been well documented along with the affects of alcohol.

 

 

 

 

Yes I agree. Drugs are bad.  Not happy with the papers I skimmed through on transgenerational effects though.

 

One should also bear in mind that while "recreational" drugs may be "pointless" in comparison with "therapeutic" drugs which are needed to treat a condition.  But if those therapeutic drugs have negative transgenerational effects, then we do have a problem.  Do they?  I have no idea, but prescription of psychoactive drugs is extremely widespread.  One would think (well I would anyway) that it's a bit odd to find so many research papers arguing that there's transgenerational "harm" cause by cannabis, but really nothing at all on aspirin or paracetamol, SSRIs or antipsychotics and psychoactive drugs etc.


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  Reply # 1691021 16-Dec-2016 12:08
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I agree. Drugs are bad.  Not happy with the papers I skimmed through on transgenerational effects though.

 

One should also bear in mind that while "recreational" drugs may be "pointless" in comparison with "therapeutic" drugs which are needed.  If those therapeutic drugs also have transgenerational effects, then we have a problem.  Do they?  I have no idea, but prescription of psychoactive drugs is extremely widespread.  One would think (well I would anyway) that it's a bit odd to find so many research papers arguing that there's transgenerational "harm" cause by cannabis, but nothing at all on aspirin or paracetamol, SSRIs or antipsychotics etc.

 

 

 

 

Medical professionals have control over the use and management of medications and women who maybe or may get pregnant are warned of the risks and the medical staff act in accordance with approved methods etc.

 

Even the medication I take I have been fully briefed on the risks associated and yes they did scare the pants off me. Recreational drug users are not tested, are not monitored, they are not advised of interactions between drugs

 

and medication.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 1691022 16-Dec-2016 12:09
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MikeB4:

I do trust his judgement, he has a BSC, First Class Honours, MSC with distinction. He has been invited to complete his Doctorate in cognitive psychology.

 

You can trust me too then... I have a BSc(Hons) and an MTech(Hons), and was invited to do a PhD (although not in cognitive psychology). 

 

 


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  Reply # 1691024 16-Dec-2016 12:13
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frankv:

 

MikeB4:

I do trust his judgement, he has a BSC, First Class Honours, MSC with distinction. He has been invited to complete his Doctorate in cognitive psychology.

 

You can trust me too then... I have a BSc(Hons) and an MTech(Hons), and was invited to do a PhD (although not in cognitive psychology). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In what majors?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 1691029 16-Dec-2016 12:17
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I agree. Drugs are bad.  Not happy with the papers I skimmed through on transgenerational effects though.

 

One should also bear in mind that while "recreational" drugs may be "pointless" in comparison with "therapeutic" drugs which are needed.  If those therapeutic drugs also have transgenerational effects, then we have a problem.  Do they?  I have no idea, but prescription of psychoactive drugs is extremely widespread.  One would think (well I would anyway) that it's a bit odd to find so many research papers arguing that there's transgenerational "harm" cause by cannabis, but nothing at all on aspirin or paracetamol, SSRIs or antipsychotics etc.

 

 

 

 

Medical professionals have control over the use and management of medications and women who maybe or may get pregnant are warned of the risks and the medical staff act in accordance with approved methods etc.

 

Even the medication I take I have been fully briefed on the risks associated and yes they did scare the pants off me. Recreational drug users are not tested, are not monitored, they are not advised of interactions between drugs

 

and medication.

 

 

 

 

Sorry - you misunderstand.  The argument has been made that there are transgenerational (ie epigenetic) effects from marijuana use - claiming that if you use marijuana, then a behavioural effect from that can be passed down to your grandchildren.

 

That's not the same as "side effects" hopefully known by doctors and disclosed to patients.

 

My point was that there's research being carried out on claimed epigenetic change from (illicit) drug use, and a big deal seems to being made of it by some, but AFAIK there's a dearth of information on potential epigenetic change from taking common prescription (and over the counter) medicine.  

 

 

 

Edit - BTW they are (hopefully) advised of potential interaction with at least the most commonly used recreational drug - alcohol.  I'd expect that a psychiatrist / doctor prescribing ie sedatives or antipsychotics etc to a patient would have a jolly good discussion and understanding with the patient, to investigate whether they were using illicit drugs, and the consequences of that. 


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  Reply # 1691030 16-Dec-2016 12:18
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

Medical professionals have control over the use and management of medications and women who maybe or may get pregnant are warned of the risks and the medical staff act in accordance with approved methods etc.

 

Even the medication I take I have been fully briefed on the risks associated and yes they did scare the pants off me. Recreational drug users are not tested, are not monitored, they are not advised of interactions between drugs

 

and medication.

 

 

And this perfectly illustrates the problem. I linked to an item (on the other drugs thread) the other day. Young people are getting hurt at festivals because under the idiotic laws in this country and Australia, it is illegal for medical professionals to provide drug-testing services. Where they take the risk and do so anyway, many substances bought  at these events turn out to be completely different from what they were sold as, and often much more dangerous. Many people choose not to take the drugs at all when they find out what is really in them. Yet it is against the law for medical professionals to give them that information. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1691036 16-Dec-2016 12:31
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I am certain I did not refer to behaviour being passed on.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 1691040 16-Dec-2016 12:37
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Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

Medical professionals have control over the use and management of medications and women who maybe or may get pregnant are warned of the risks and the medical staff act in accordance with approved methods etc.

 

Even the medication I take I have been fully briefed on the risks associated and yes they did scare the pants off me. Recreational drug users are not tested, are not monitored, they are not advised of interactions between drugs

 

and medication.

 

 

And this perfectly illustrates the problem. I linked to an item (on the other drugs thread) the other day. Young people are getting hurt at festivals because under the idiotic laws in this country and Australia, it is illegal for medical professionals to provide drug-testing services. Where they take the risk and do so anyway, many substances bought  at these events turn out to be completely different from what they were sold as, and often much more dangerous. Many people choose not to take the drugs at all when they find out what is really in them. Yet it is against the law for medical professionals to give them that information. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know medical law so I wont really say much. But I am sure there is no law preventing a doctor to request blood toxicity and other blood test if he/she believes the patient may have health issues. I do not believe there is a problem with them advising of contra indications if the patient advises they take drugs.

 

However if these things become legal then its in the wild and god knows what the outcome will be, one just has to look at the failed experiment with legal highs etc.

 

Can someone please advise what gain could there be for someone with no pre existing medical conditions in taking these poisons.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 1691044 16-Dec-2016 12:41
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MikeB4:

 

I am certain I did not refer to behaviour being passed on.

 

 

You did actually:

 

MikeB4: My Son is a Psychologist so knows a bit about this. I was chatting with him during the week and his reaction is an absolute no. The damage it causes is not a myth and he was saying that the damage is generational. In other words given to off spring, So it is not an individuals decisions.


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  Reply # 1691046 16-Dec-2016 12:46
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

 

 

Can someone please advise what gain could there be for someone with no pre existing medical conditions in taking these poisons.

 

 

 

 

Enjoyment.

 

Sad but true, people indulge in dangerous behaviour for "kicks", whether that's unsafe sex, jumping out of aeroplanes for fun, that weird self-asphyxiation thing, driving too fast etc.


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  Reply # 1691047 16-Dec-2016 12:49
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MikeB4:

 

Can someone please advise what gain could there be for someone with no pre existing medical conditions in taking these poisons.

 

 

None.  But people take it anyway and it seems unreasonable to make it criminal. 

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on the 'poison' angle.  Everything is poisonous, even water will cause intoxication and death if enough is consumed.

 

To be honest if cannabis was legalised I would very occasionally partake.  I'm done breeding so no issues there. I would see it as being about as risky to me as eating bacon. I really shouldn't eat bacon but I do.





Mike

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