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  # 1707222 21-Jan-2017 21:07
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tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Those principles are laid down in the Constitution. That is what it is for. 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. I've seen the Constitution at the Lincoln Memorial, didn't read it though. But thats the US, democracy is a general term of election by the people. The world does exist outside of the US, and that will certainly grow in the next 4 years. 

 

 

Nearly every country has a constitution. Not all try to live up to it. A diplomatic joke in the Cold War era was that some of the most repressive Communist regimes in Eastern Europe had the most liberal, enlightened constitutions. A bit like Animal Farm, actually.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 1707224 21-Jan-2017 21:09
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

Look in the mirror. 

 

Contentious assertion?? Democracy is about election by the people. It is not about the US Constitution, unless you happen to be American, which is a small perctentile of the populous in the globe as you well know. 

 

If we were American at geekzone.com, then you would be correct, but we are not.

 

 

No offence but you do realise NZ is one of the more unusual countries that don't have a formal constitution, right? And why is democracy just about election by the people? Because Tdgeek said so? For someone who spares no effort lecturing people on how they ought to post and debate, you might perhaps like to understand what a debate is.

 

I posted this on here previous but it bears repeating:

 

Competing understandings of democracy vie for our attention and support. One understanding identifies democracy as the right of majorities to rule. This has the advantage of simplicity and gains further support from the frequent employment of majority-rule voting. Another understanding is more complex but far more adequate. It insists that political systems be organized on the basis of an abstract principle of political morality: political equality. It allows opportunities for majority rule voting and direct popular participation to play important roles in working democracies, but it asserts that legitimate democracies are those that respect minority rights and promote fair and inclusive deliberation. Of course, we often disagree about the substance of particular rights claims, and the objectively difficult question of how best to organize our institutions – including judicial review – so as to realize a system of collective self-rule on the basis of fair and inclusive deliberation and political equality. Perhaps because of the complexities inherent in any account of democracy in today’s world, there is much loose talk, and some impressive political theorizing, in favor of the simple idea of democratic politics as majority rule. I would like to argue here, however, that we should stop talking about “majoritarianism” as a plausible characterization of a political system that we would recommend.

 

You have an understanding of democracy, not the only understanding of democracy. You aren't God.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1707226 21-Jan-2017 21:11
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Rikkitic:

 

tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Those principles are laid down in the Constitution. That is what it is for. 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. I've seen the Constitution at the Lincoln Memorial, didn't read it though. But thats the US, democracy is a general term of election by the people. The world does exist outside of the US, and that will certainly grow in the next 4 years. 

 

 

Nearly every country has a constitution. Not all try to live up to it. A diplomatic joke in the Cold War era was that some of the most repressive Communist regimes in Eastern Europe had the most liberal, enlightened constitutions. A bit like Animal Farm, actually.

 

 

 

 

Fair call. Trump wants everyone to be equal. Some are .....  and so on

 

But democracy is an election by the people, different countries may have differing beliefs, but that is their culture, its not a democratic thing. But lets agree to disagree.


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  # 1707228 21-Jan-2017 21:20
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To have an effective democracy you need to have more than just a regular vote. To effectively inform the electorate you need a free Press. You need to have free speech to allow dissent. You can't have a secret police who suppresses all dissidents.

If all you is a regular vote you just have an autocracy masquerading as a democracy. A true democracy allows other candidates to put forward their point of view. An autocracy doesn't.

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  # 1707229 21-Jan-2017 21:26
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dejadeadnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

Look in the mirror. 

 

Contentious assertion?? Democracy is about election by the people. It is not about the US Constitution, unless you happen to be American, which is a small perctentile of the populous in the globe as you well know. 

 

If we were American at geekzone.com, then you would be correct, but we are not.

 

 

No offence but you do realise NZ is one of the more unusual countries that don't have a formal constitution, right? And why is democracy just about election by the people? Because Tdgeek said so? For someone who spares no effort lecturing people on how they ought to post and debate, you might perhaps like to understand what a debate is.

 

I posted this on here previous but it bears repeating:

 

Competing understandings of democracy vie for our attention and support. One understanding identifies democracy as the right of majorities to rule. This has the advantage of simplicity and gains further support from the frequent employment of majority-rule voting. Another understanding is more complex but far more adequate. It insists that political systems be organized on the basis of an abstract principle of political morality: political equality. It allows opportunities for majority rule voting and direct popular participation to play important roles in working democracies, but it asserts that legitimate democracies are those that respect minority rights and promote fair and inclusive deliberation. Of course, we often disagree about the substance of particular rights claims, and the objectively difficult question of how best to organize our institutions – including judicial review – so as to realize a system of collective self-rule on the basis of fair and inclusive deliberation and political equality. Perhaps because of the complexities inherent in any account of democracy in today’s world, there is much loose talk, and some impressive political theorizing, in favor of the simple idea of democratic politics as majority rule. I would like to argue here, however, that we should stop talking about “majoritarianism” as a plausible characterization of a political system that we would recommend.

 

You have an understanding of democracy, not the only understanding of democracy. You aren't God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No offence? Incorrect, you do mean offence, as you show repeatedly in your posts.

 

Right? Yes, I am aware of that

 

For someone who spares no effort lecturing people on how they ought to post and debate. If you have an issue if I, and others have stated lets discuss, not name call etc, then perhaps take that up with the moderators. This is a "discussion" forum. Not a look at me, I am this, I know everything forum. 

 

I know what a debate is. Sometimes this is a mass debate

 

I don't recall saying I am God, so why are you saying that? Name calling? Or in that case, positive name calling

 

 

 

End of the day mate, many here have no issue in discussions, being corrected, being enlightened, but I am sure many are tired of the ongoing rhetoric. I will stop there

 

 

 

 


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  # 1707235 21-Jan-2017 21:33
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

End of the day mate, many here have no issue in discussions, being corrected, being enlightened, but I am sure many are tired of the ongoing rhetoric. I will stop there

 

 

 

Personally, I would much rather see heated discussions rather than piss poor quality conclusory statements masquerading as debates. But we obviously will never agree.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1707237 21-Jan-2017 21:34
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freitasm: Yes, let's see how Trump is going to "defeat ISIS" (he said only he can do it)... Come back to this thread in six months.

 

 

 

Trump is the greatest asset the recruiters for ISIS and other militant islamist movements could have ever wished for.


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  # 1707239 21-Jan-2017 21:39
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Handle9: To have an effective democracy you need to have more than just a regular vote. To effectively inform the electorate you need a free Press. You need to have free speech to allow dissent. You can't have a secret police who suppresses all dissidents.

If all you is a regular vote you just have an autocracy masquerading as a democracy. A true democracy allows other candidates to put forward their point of view. An autocracy doesn't.

 

I don't disagree. BMost first world democratic countries run like that. if they don't they aren't democratic. It goes without saying that if you have "elections" and these are managed, thats clearly not democratic. Take China. Probably more KFCs in Beijing than NYC (153 at last count), Coke, Peps, its a very very capitalistic  country, but its a communist state. Im not sure where you are heading with this.


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  # 1707241 21-Jan-2017 21:42
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Fred99:

 

freitasm: Yes, let's see how Trump is going to "defeat ISIS" (he said only he can do it)... Come back to this thread in six months.

 

 

 

Trump is the greatest asset the recruiters for ISIS and other militant islamist movements could have ever wished for.

 

 

I seem to recall that the last time a republican prezi was in the white house, he promised he was gonna wipe terrorism off the map. undecided


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  # 1707243 21-Jan-2017 21:44
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dejadeadnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

End of the day mate, many here have no issue in discussions, being corrected, being enlightened, but I am sure many are tired of the ongoing rhetoric. I will stop there

 

 

 

Personally, I would much rather see heated discussions rather than piss poor quality conclusory statements masquerading as debates. But we obviously will never agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Says it all.

 

I'd go head to head with you here if there was a vote button. But your comment does tidy it up nicely.


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  # 1707245 21-Jan-2017 21:45
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Fred99:

 

freitasm: Yes, let's see how Trump is going to "defeat ISIS" (he said only he can do it)... Come back to this thread in six months.

 

 

 

Trump is the greatest asset the recruiters for ISIS and other militant islamist movements could have ever wished for.

 

 

I think so too. He can be tricked into saying dumb stuff on the spur of the moment, trigger something. 


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  # 1707258 21-Jan-2017 22:45
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Handle9: To have an effective democracy you need to have more than just a regular vote. To effectively inform the electorate you need a free Press. You need to have free speech to allow dissent. You can't have a secret police who suppresses all dissidents.

If all you is a regular vote you just have an autocracy masquerading as a democracy. A true democracy allows other candidates to put forward their point of view. An autocracy doesn't.

 

 

 

Let me illustrate your point: Zimbabwe is technically a democracy....






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  # 1707272 22-Jan-2017 04:44
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Even North Korea is officially named the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"

 


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  # 1707310 22-Jan-2017 10:01
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tdgeek: But democracy is an election by the people, different countries may have differing beliefs, but that is their culture, its not a democratic thing. 

 

This view is extremely simplistic and this simplicity makes the view incorrect. You need to expand things out to come to a more accurate view, like Handle9 has done.

 

Handle9: To have an effective democracy you need to have more than just a regular vote. To effectively inform the electorate you need a free Press. You need to have free speech to allow dissent. You can't have a secret police who suppresses all dissidents.

If all you is a regular vote you just have an autocracy masquerading as a democracy. A true democracy allows other candidates to put forward their point of view. An autocracy doesn't.

 

And you also have to have free voting with booths that aren't closely monitored by FSB agents.

 

Those who think Russia is a democracy, rather than an autocracy need to read up a little. Here's a partial list of suspicious deaths under Putin - read through the links as well. Here's an article about Russia's human rights crackdown, it 2 years old but still very relevant and, again, has some interesting links - especially in relation to the "blogger law". There are literally hundreds of thousands more informative links.

 

As for populism: when you control the state, when you control the media, when you control voting, when you [to a large degree] control dissention* through extreme violence - it becomes very easy to become 'wildly popular'.

 

EDIT: *I'm including views/speech/writing from opposition political parties in the term 'dissention'.


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  # 1707319 22-Jan-2017 10:42
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People in this and other threads on here have posted plenty of evidence to show that the view of democracy held by the likes of Stan and Tdgeek is simplistic to the point of moral and practical bankruptcy. Yet as we've seen, no amount of evidence will convince them to not continue to assert their positions as absolute facts.

 

 

 

 


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