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  # 1726046 25-Feb-2017 10:25
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Hint: If someone txts me their account number, or types it in an email, I will often double check with them before I pay them, just to make sure they haven't made a typo at their end.


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  # 1726078 25-Feb-2017 11:25
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harlansmart: they're saying that someone at Newmarket ANZ where I bank with ANZ, has my friends same Account Number, frankly I do not believe this.

 

When the ANZ and NBNZ having merged their back-end systems a few years ago, they merged all the account numbers from both banks together; so I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone from one of the original banks had the same "account number" (the 7 digit block) as another customer from the other bank, but with different branch-codes.  The branch-code prefix would have made the numbers unique (enough) that they probably didn't do anything further.

 

freitasm: I have always been surprised that NZ bank accounts don't have a checksum digit to prevent this kind of mistakes.

 

I believe that originally NBNZ (the old National Bank) did have a checksum in their account numbers [I recall the old NBNZ internet banking GUI would reject account numbers if they were typo'ed - it must have "known" somehow]; if I had to guess, the bank-end merge with ANZ probably made that too difficult to continue.  Pity.

 

 


 
 
 
 




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  # 1726081 25-Feb-2017 11:40
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HA! I though of this last night, but as I planned to test whether I could deposit manually over the counter to the account today, I will do this later on this afternoon, good idea, I plan to try this!

 

'Brain fart.
Why not send the account small amounts of money like 10c and put a message in the reference?
Like "paid wrong account, please call me at XYZ” - tchart'

 

 

 

I am off again to the ANZ again now, I will report back in a few hours, so far they are possibly/maybe telling me the account I paid is active, but I suspect they are not being wholly honest, the statistical probability even with the National Bank merger is very small. I'm off to the ANZ, now, again.

 

 'If you used his account number, your branch number, there won't be a real account that matches this and the payment will have gone into the receiving bank's suspense account. This is a 'catch all' account for holding funds that couldn't be applied to an account. Because two banks are involved it will take staff time to sort out, so you have probably done you $75 - which is probably a fair charge for the time involved. - dafman'

 

 


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  # 1726083 25-Feb-2017 11:45
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I thought there was a process used in Europe , Using a verification code that needed to match provided by the receiver of the money for transfers to occur.

 

I thought it was called a "tien number" . Google is not showing any results have I got the word wrong

 

This would prevent so many banking errors for customers


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  # 1726085 25-Feb-2017 11:57
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sbiddle:

 

Such a process would still be extremely complex, and certainly with no guarantee of success.

 

If the money was deposited into an account and was subject to something such as the proceeds of crime act and/or criminal proceeds recovery then there are grounds for recovery of this money.

 

If you make a simple mistake and transfer the money then there is quite simply no obligation for you to hand that money bank. If you were the receiving party then your bank is going to strongly suggest you do, and no doubt a lawyer would offer the same advice, but there is no legal legislation that says you have to.

 

 

 

 

With the greatest of respect, Sbiddle, it would occasionally help to recognise that you are in fact not a lawyer. Even if there is an explicit legislation providing a ground for recovering the money, short of banks being empowered to act as judge, jury and executioner and directly effecting the reversal of transfer in all alleged cases (which will never happen and is untenable for the banks), people still would have to go to court if they want to get their money back. If you have a legal and banking risk background as I do, you would understand this. And it's also untenable to turn all accidental payment cases into a police/criminal matter where an accidental recipient who might just be away from a couple of weeks, injured in hospital, or just uncontactable (people are entitled to disappear) are left in the invidious situation of potentially having a warrant to arrest or a criminal proceeds recovery proceeding served on them when they've done nothing wrong.

 

And, no, there is absolute a legal obligation to hand money back that someone deposited into your account for which you have no legitimate reason to receive. It's just that it's a civil obligation enforceable only at common law. The change of position defence that you might be alluding to is pretty hard to run in the internet age and certainly for any significant amount. And the change of position has to have occurred without any wrongoing on the part of the person raising it.

 

If you have money accidentally deposited into your account and then knowingly deliberately empty your account and spend the money, then you are at massive risk of a successful criminal prosecution, as the so called Westpac accidental millionaire learned. But none of this helps someone who needs their money back quickly (and the police isn't going to jump out of bed to file a freezing order over a few thousand dollars). If this issue is common enough (I am not aware of it being the case) then the only solution is a cheap, efficient tribunal system that can make urgent freezing orders and effect recovery cheaply.

 

 


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  # 1726090 25-Feb-2017 12:30
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I have no special knowledge of this issue so let me get that out of the way first. I don't know why banks do things the way they do, or why they don't do them differently. I do have years of experience as a customer of different banking systems in different countries and I have to say that since living in New Zealand, I have been repeatedly amazed at how unhelpful banks here actually are. They seem to have set things up entirely to suit their own convenience, with no regard whatsoever for their customers. 

 

As far as the accidental payment issue goes, this seems to be impossible in Holland. Banks there check account holder names against account numbers and they won't do the transfer if these don't agree. Somehow they are able to do this, so I guess it is not rocket science. Dutch banks also have an excellent, smoothly-functioning system for making payments between banks. This has been working since at least World War II. If you want to pay money into someone else's account, you just do it. No problem, and it doesn't matter what banks you are both with. Here the only way to do it until Internet banking came along was to physically walk to a branch of the payee's bank and deposit the amount in cash! How primitive is that?

 

Cheques are not common in the Dutch system, partly because there has never been much need for them, but they can't be cashed by just anyone like they can here (yes, I know about crossed cheques). Again, I have no special knowledge, but as a customer my strong impression is that banks here don't want to be bothered with anything that might cost them a little bit of effort just to make things easier for customers, and somehow they have been allowed to write the rules.

 

 





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  # 1726096 25-Feb-2017 12:50
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Banks aren't perfect but they aren't out to get anyone either. You can have all these checks and balances but when people's payments get delayed, they will complain. Banks seem to have settled on a much more "hands off" model as a result. Whether this is a good thing or not, I'll let others decide.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1726153 25-Feb-2017 16:12
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Rikkitic:

I have no special knowledge of this issue so let me get that out of the way first. I don't know why banks do things the way they do, or why they don't do them differently. I do have years of experience as a customer of different banking systems in different countries and I have to say that since living in New Zealand, I have been repeatedly amazed at how unhelpful banks here actually are. They seem to have set things up entirely to suit their own convenience, with no regard whatsoever for their customers. 


As far as the accidental payment issue goes, this seems to be impossible in Holland. Banks there check account holder names against account numbers and they won't do the transfer if these don't agree. Somehow they are able to do this, so I guess it is not rocket science. Dutch banks also have an excellent, smoothly-functioning system for making payments between banks. This has been working since at least World War II. If you want to pay money into someone else's account, you just do it. No problem, and it doesn't matter what banks you are both with. Here the only way to do it until Internet banking came along was to physically walk to a branch of the payee's bank and deposit the amount in cash! How primitive is that?


Cheques are not common in the Dutch system, partly because there has never been much need for them, but they can't be cashed by just anyone like they can here (yes, I know about crossed cheques). Again, I have no special knowledge, but as a customer my strong impression is that banks here don't want to be bothered with anything that might cost them a little bit of effort just to make things easier for customers, and somehow they have been allowed to write the rules.


 


It's good you say you have no knowledge, because you are completely wrong. Dutch settlements are cleared via iDEAL, which has been in place since 2006. IDEAL is very similar to CECS/BECS, NZ's settlement systems for Consumer and Business settlement. Both systems verify accounts, but cannot verify account names, only the numbers.

CECS can clear between banks within an hour or less, or can take longer. In the Netherlands it's at least overnight between banks. Our system is probably a little better than the Ductch system, but they are very similar.

Also, when I started working on payment systems in 1982, it was entirely possible to make an electronic transfer between bank accounts. It wasn't as easy as today, but there was absolutely no requirement to make a physical cash deposit at the Payee's bank.

Also, Holland has no banking system. Holland is a region of the Netherlands.




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  # 1726188 25-Feb-2017 17:50
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tchart: Brain fart.

Why not send the account small amounts of money like 10c and put a message in the reference?

Like "paid wrong account, please call me at XYZ"


This is an interesting idea but many people wouldn't check their back statement regularly. But I do wonder what happens when you do get a payment that you can't reconcile. Would the bank be able to return it at no cost? Where does the actual cost come for the bank or are they charging for their time?

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  # 1726279 25-Feb-2017 22:46
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BlinkyBill:

 


It's good you say you have no knowledge, because you are completely wrong. Dutch settlements are cleared via iDEAL, which has been in place since 2006. IDEAL is very similar to CECS/BECS, NZ's settlement systems for Consumer and Business settlement. Both systems verify accounts, but cannot verify account names, only the numbers.

CECS can clear between banks within an hour or less, or can take longer. In the Netherlands it's at least overnight between banks. Our system is probably a little better than the Ductch system, but they are very similar.

Also, when I started working on payment systems in 1982, it was entirely possible to make an electronic transfer between bank accounts. It wasn't as easy as today, but there was absolutely no requirement to make a physical cash deposit at the Payee's bank.

Also, Holland has no banking system. Holland is a region of the Netherlands.

 

Do you have anything to say or are you just being pedantic? I left Holland in 2004 so am referring to the system I am familiar with. Maybe it has gone downhill since my time, but it worked quite well then. Holland is not a region of the Netherlands, by the way. There is a province called Noord-Holland and another called Zuid-Holland. In English, 'Holland' is often used synonymously with The Netherlands. According to Wikipedia: 'The name Holland is also frequently used informally to refer to the whole of the country of the Netherlands.' That is how I am using it since I am speaking English here.

 

Every time I have gone into a bank in this country to pay a Trade Me bill, I have been given the same crap about not being able to make a payment from a different bank. Clearly you know better, just as you obviously know my country better than I do. 

 

 

 

 





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  # 1726418 26-Feb-2017 10:45
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What are you talking about going into a bank? This is internet banking.




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  # 1726464 26-Feb-2017 12:41
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Always put you cellphone number in one of the receiving person's reference sections. Then if you accidentally get the account number wrong and the person is honest (which most people are), they have your number to contact you and arrange repayment.


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  # 1726470 26-Feb-2017 12:56
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freitasm:

 

I have always been surprised that NZ bank accounts don't have a checksum digit to prevent this kind of mistakes. What if you send a payment for car - say $25,000 to the wrong account? The money is gone, gone, bad luck? Sounds weird...

 

 

The process is understandable as it also needs to take account of people claiming they paid someone in error for a good or service (when they had actually received the good or service) and fraudulently getting their money back.......leaving the person thus ripped off to call the police or go through the courts to recover the money. 

If you had moved $25K to the wrong account, you'd happily pay the $75 cost of attempting recovery..... 

Take-away: triple check the account number.....





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  # 1726481 26-Feb-2017 13:13
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mattwnz:

 

This is why I always copy and paste the account number into online banking. However some banks now prevent this which is a real pain. Many business have pre approved accounts, where you just enter teh name of the business, and it will autofill in the bank details. I think the banks need to come together to come up with a good solution, as the current system is poor. Especially as more and more people a now not using credit cards due to companies adding on surcharges.

 

 

I check and check and check the number again. 

You can't check too many times. No such thing. Especially for funds transfers related to property transactions. There is no such thing as "a simple mistake". That's refusing to accept responsibility and the consequences....and a willingness to make it everyone else's problem. 

 

Just don't screw it up.

 

If you're tired....get some sleep and do it when you're not tired (or drunk...or whatever). If you're typically prone to error due to some behavioral flaw or brain injury....then get someone else to do it for you.

Clearly, there is no such thing as a 'simple mistake' in this case. It gets very complicated. 

Am I grumpy? A little. I have long since got tired of people who screw up and then try to make it everyone else's problem. So. Over. That. 

 

 

 

 

 

 





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  # 1726483 26-Feb-2017 13:17
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richms: What are you talking about going into a bank? This is internet banking.

 

I'm talking about the comparative level of service when I lived in Holland and when I first lived here. There I could make a payment to anyone with any account from my bank's branch. Here they said it wasn't possible and I had to go to the recipient's bank and make a cash deposit. I found that remarkably backward. Internet banking wasn't an option for me for many years because I was stuck on very poor dial-up that barely sufficed for email. I also found that remarkably backward, but that is a different story.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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