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3639 posts

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  #1740230 16-Mar-2017 12:26
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Rikkitic:

 

Indifference is the same as saying women don't matter. 

 

 

OTOH, overreaction is saying that only women matter.

 

 


Devastation by stupidity
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  #1740247 16-Mar-2017 12:49
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It is not an overreaction to say everyone matters. That is the argument women are making here.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1740277 16-Mar-2017 13:07
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Rikkitic:

 

It is not an overreaction to say everyone matters. That is the argument women are making here.

 

 

I agree that females shouldn't have to put up with behaviour from some males that they do. But they're using an inaccurate description of the problem which undermines their position.





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  #1740284 16-Mar-2017 13:24
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Rikkitic:

 

 If you were a young woman you would not see this as 'a storm in a teacup'. Most men, however well-intentioned they are, have no idea how much crap girls and women have to put up with every day of their lives. This kind of thing does deserve to be taken seriously and stamped on wherever it emerges. Indifference is the same as saying women don't matter. 

 

 

 

 

Agreed.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #1740293 16-Mar-2017 13:47
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You can make an argument to say women (pay) are treated poorly by society or men (workplace harm) or any other group you like if you pick and choose your stats. 

 

You can also structure an argument to attribute partial responsibility to any of those groups for their own predicaments.  You can make a strawman for any group and attack it for it's abhorrent behaviour (all men are ...)

 

It's all relatively meaningless ...

 

What we see as equality improves in NZ is interest groups coming up with more and more abstract societal syndromes to justify their ongoing existence.  'rape culture' is one of those.  That's not to say that there aren't issues to be addressed - of course there are.  But the joining of disparate problems into a societal syndrome is not justified - logically or empirically.

 

 





Mike

gzt

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  #1740336 16-Mar-2017 14:41
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gzt:
frankv:

What I want to know is why the school is involved at all? Did these boys commit the acts at school, or send the messages from school, or using school equipment?


 


I assume because students man my this type of comment are a danger to other students. That's a good reason.

Looks like autocorrect mangled the above. Second try:

I assume they were suspended because students making this type of comment are a danger to other students. That's a good reason.

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  #1740408 16-Mar-2017 16:53
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MikeAqua:

 

You can make an argument to say women (pay) are treated poorly by society or men (workplace harm) or any other group you like if you pick and choose your stats. 

 

You can also structure an argument to attribute partial responsibility to any of those groups for their own predicaments.  You can make a strawman for any group and attack it for it's abhorrent behaviour (all men are ...)

 

It's all relatively meaningless ...

 

What we see as equality improves in NZ is interest groups coming up with more and more abstract societal syndromes to justify their ongoing existence.  'rape culture' is one of those.  That's not to say that there aren't issues to be addressed - of course there are.  But the joining of disparate problems into a societal syndrome is not justified - logically or empirically.

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMHO, while legislatively NZ may be relatively liberal and improved, we're still at the mercy of "popular culture" (much of which is imported) which again IMHO hasn't always advanced in terms of not presenting (unhealthy) stereotypes.  There's also been kickback against "political correctness".

 

It doesn't surprise me that the term "rape culture" was used, it's probably quite appropriate under the circumstances as it's not the first time this kind of thing has come up - exposed through social media. Wasn't that long ago we had the "roast busters" scandal - where it was more than just adolescent boy BS bravado.  And it was defended by "friends" of the accused - suggesting that it was just normal teenage antics, that they were "good guys".

 

Sure does seem like rape to me, and there seems to be a culture surrounding it (or accepting it).  


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  #1740421 16-Mar-2017 17:26
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Rikkitic:

 

 If you were a young woman you would not see this as 'a storm in a teacup'. Most men, however well-intentioned they are, have no idea how much crap girls and women have to put up with every day of their lives. This kind of thing does deserve to be taken seriously and stamped on wherever it emerges. Indifference is the same as saying women don't matter. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, it isn't. It's just life.

 

 

 

My wife does not put up with any crap, nor my mother, nor my sisters in law, nor my niece and I have yet to meet many women who do. There are plenty of laws in place to protect us all from each other already. 

 

Human beings have all sorts of failings but you won't ever stamp them out  and this bizarre modern concept that we can do just that will lead only to failure.

 

Yes, the boys should have been taken aside and someone should have had a stern word with them (not least of all their parents). That would have been adequate in my day and I am sure it would be today. Of course nowadays we have to have it all over the media and we all have to join in the virtue-signalling.








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  #1740450 16-Mar-2017 19:24
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Rikkitic:

 

 If you were a young woman you would not see this as 'a storm in a teacup'. Most men, however well-intentioned they are, have no idea how much crap girls and women have to put up with every day of their lives. This kind of thing does deserve to be taken seriously and stamped on wherever it emerges. Indifference is the same as saying women don't matter. 

 

 

 

 

I'm the OP but you are right. Does it deserve a red banner alert? It does for a genuine article of concern, but I see it as a clickbait news item, which in itself is sad.


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  #1740463 16-Mar-2017 19:57
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The way it was handled by the media is one issue. I was responding to those who shrug and say it is no big deal. Part of the reason there is such a problem is because people do shrug and say it is no big deal. If you are on the receiving end of the kind of attitude expressed by those boys, it is a big deal. That is what those women were demonstrating about. Fortunately, most boys grow out of this kind of thing and most men treat women with respect. The problem is those who don't.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1740532 16-Mar-2017 21:50
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The biggest issue is that these kids aren't given a chance - they've lost a lot more than a couple of days at school over this, and the consequences just aren't scaled properly.

 

An unsavoury comment was made, and the students should've been disciplined, a stern word being had to them, and maybe a school wide reminder that actually hey, this sort of thing isn't okay, isn't tolerated, and is the territory of deviants, perverts and criminals. Instead there's a giant circus where every bastard nationwide is aware, and jumping up and down. The demands for action, apologies, etc won't end until something fresher comes for the masses to pounce upon, because short of public self-flagellation, these young fellas won't ever get a chance to be "redeemed" in the eyes of some.

 

 

Is it acceptable? No. Is the scope and scale of the consequences in this situation acceptable? No. Harm prevention should be the focus, not harming potential. No good can ever come of this kind of nonsense.




Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.


gzt

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  #1740535 16-Mar-2017 21:59
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Geektastic: My wife does not put up with any crap, nor my mother, nor my sisters in law, nor my niece and I have yet to meet many women who do. There are plenty of laws in place to protect us all from each other already.

I suggest you read the objectionable comments again. You may have missed something.

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  #1740605 17-Mar-2017 07:22
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Rikkitic:

 

The way it was handled by the media is one issue. I was responding to those who shrug and say it is no big deal. Part of the reason there is such a problem is because people do shrug and say it is no big deal. If you are on the receiving end of the kind of attitude expressed by those boys, it is a big deal. That is what those women were demonstrating about. Fortunately, most boys grow out of this kind of thing and most men treat women with respect. The problem is those who don't.

 

 

 

 

I am not here or there about what the boys did, it was clearly wrong to intimate that non-consensual sex should be tolerated, and I am definitely not arguing that consent needs to be discussed at length with both boys and girls, as many cases have been reported recently where consent has been questioned.

 

There has also been cases where consent has been implied, which happens a lot but later been regretted and rape cases heard based on that.

 

What doesn't need to be implied is there is a rape culture in NZ based on a very small minority of people, it is just feminist-Nazism at its worst and detracts from the arguments that are valid.


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  #1740625 17-Mar-2017 09:15
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dickytim:

 

 

 

What doesn't need to be implied is there is a rape culture in NZ based on a very small minority of people (that I've heard about), it is just feminist-Nazism at its worst and detracts from the arguments that are valid.

 

 

I've added a FTFY in brackets above - as I don't believe that you actually know what goes on.

 

I don't know all about what goes on either, but I do know that in my son's extended peer group when he was that age (16-18 or so), there were several boys who'd boasted about doing exactly what's being complained about by the people you call "feminist nazis", getting girls drunk so that they could have sex with them. I know who they are, and I know their parents. 

 

Do the majority behave like that?  I expect certainly not.  Is there a widespread "cultural" issue with a minority behaving that way?  IMO there almost certainly is.  Why now - in the "socially enlightened twenty teens" - probably related to easy availability of booze - to under 18s, reducing the drinking age was IMO a serious mistake.

 

As for "feminist nazism" comments,  TBH if I was a mod, I'd consider carefully if that invokes Godwin's and warrants locking the thread. It's offensive - way beyond for example calling someone a "spelling nazi" etc.

 

There is real neo-fascism in the world - and they're making gains. Being "zealous" - if that's the problem you have with those feminists - does not make one a "nazi" and use of that term to describe "zealous" feminists (and thus to attack feminism itself by association) is a lazy cheap and nasty way to argue your point.


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  #1740630 17-Mar-2017 09:38
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As someone with 16 years working in high schools, I would say the suspension would be a sit down agreement between the boys/parents and the school. Rather than a forced upon them by the school. The whole punishment and apology statement screams with a behind the scenes board meeting. It is a good move imagine the public outcry if the boys/parents tried to contest the punishment, we have seen it before with the rowing saga.

 

It is very hard for schools to suspend for actions against students who misbehave outside of school as it can be contested by lawyers.


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