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  Reply # 1744008 19-Mar-2017 19:13
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MikeB4: So a woman does not have the right to drink unmolested? does that apply to wearing a mini skirt, going for a walk in the evening, wearing a bikini on the beach? Any woman or man who thinks the attitudes being discussed here are not remotely affecting them are wrong it most certainly does.

 

Most of us teach our kids to respect other people's property.  I should have the right to leave my keys in the ignition when going to pay for my gas.  I should have the right to leave the doors of my house open on a hot day if I duck out for half an hour.  However, if I do either of those things,and there is a negative consequence, the Police, my insurance company, and my friends and family, would be less sympathetic than if I had taken reasonable steps to protect myself from a loss.

 

Most of us teach our kids to respect other people.  My female relatives should have the right to wear what they like when they go out.    My female relatives should be able to have more than a couple of drinks when they go out.  However if they do those things, and there is a negative consequence, is it reasonable for the community to be less sympathetic?  Certainly any sort of sexual violation will have a significantly larger impact on the victim than a stolen car or a burgled house.

 

The harsh reality is that sexual offending is very unlikely to be 100% eliminated from our society.  This of course does not mean we should not try through both proactive education and reactive punishment.  I'll be teaching my girls ways to lessen their chances of being the victim of this sort of offending.  This will include skirts that are just a little bit longer, drinking lightly unless they are in their own home, jogging with a friend, and looking out for their mates who are taking unwise risks.

 

In my ideal world, there would no be victims of sexual offending.  In the word I actually live in, barring some major societal change, there will always be a victim.  One of my jobs is to try and make sure that this victim is not a member of my family.





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  Reply # 1744168 20-Mar-2017 01:50
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Fred99:

 

Call it a sub-culture then. As well as theft, there are probably many other "sub-cultures" with very negative outcomes to society - but they're all part of "our" culture.  We're in this together.

 

 

Rape isn't culturally acceptable in any culture I identify with.

 

If feminists want to call it 'rape sub-culture' I can live with that.

 

But they never will: It's not much of a dog-whistle and it doesn't allow them to tar all men with the same brush.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you only live, breathe, and communicate with people in some kind of isolated world or gated community separate from the NZ I live in?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In an ideal world, yes.






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  Reply # 1744174 20-Mar-2017 06:15
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 No one is saying a woman doesn't have the right to wear what she wants, go where she wants do what she wants.

 

What is being said that dangerous behaviours contribute to being in a situation where things can go wrong.

 

When it is bucketing down with snow and ice we still have the right to drive at 100km/h but you are a bloody idiot if you do.

 

When it is pitch black down a dodgy alley somewhere and a woman, or anyone for that matter is so blind drunk they don't know what they are doing walking down it also makes you a bloody idiot does it not?

 

Having the right to do something does not make it safe to do it, the sooner we all learn that the better/safer we will all be.





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  Reply # 1744246 20-Mar-2017 09:19
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People do have a responsibility to look after themselves. They also have a responsibility to not prey on the weak and vulnerable. This discussion seems a little one-sided to me. 

 

 





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  Reply # 1744253 20-Mar-2017 09:27
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Rikkitic:

 

People do have a responsibility to look after themselves. They also have a responsibility to not prey on the weak and vulnerable. This discussion seems a little one-sided to me. 

 

 

 

 

It also risks being hypocritical.  Victim blaming seems to be a special favourite defense of moral conservatives, reserved almost entirely when a woman is raped.

 

Those same moral conservatives scream like banshees when an elderly person or child is attacked - even abused cats seem to get more sympathy.

 

And they say it's not a "cultural" issue...

 

 


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  Reply # 1744257 20-Mar-2017 09:32
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Rikkitic:

 

People do have a responsibility to look after themselves. They also have a responsibility to not prey on the weak and vulnerable. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this, I certainly am not, I am disagreeing that there is a rape culture in NZ.





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  Reply # 1744267 20-Mar-2017 09:41
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm suggesting there is a difference between going somewhere and doing something that will compromise your safety and autonomy, versus grandma knitting in the front room and getting assaulted. Both bad, but one was more likely than the other, due to actions taken.

All said and done, though, I can't do much to stop rape culture, because it's a belief, not a systematic thing. If someone can provide a step by step guide as to what needs to be done, then I'll take a look and see what I can do. But I doubt it'll be anything more than wishy-washy concepts like stop raping people, which isn't a habit I've picked up.

Can't do much with feelings though.

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  Reply # 1744339 20-Mar-2017 10:51
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Fred99:

 

Do you only live, breathe, and communicate with people in some kind of isolated world or gated community separate from the NZ I live in?

 

 

I associate largely with educated, professional people - i.e. people I met via uni/work/neighbourhood.  Despite that , actually quite a diverse lot in terms of country of origin, culture etc

 

Fred99:

 

You're talking about it being "culturally acceptable" which it clearly isn't to you or me.

 

....

 

Those "despicables" (sorry HRC) regardless of number are actually part of "our" NZ culture. Unpleasant - but true.

 

 

So we agree rape isn't culturally acceptable in NZ (an amalgam of other cultures).

 

I'm saying: That being the case, no-one can credibly claim that NZ has a 'rape culture'.  That label speaks to a culture that endorses or accepts rape.

 

I object to the rape culture label strongly because it is another expression of the 'all men are rapists' viewpoint espoused by some feminists.

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1744343 20-Mar-2017 10:56
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The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.





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  Reply # 1744378 20-Mar-2017 11:24
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MikeB4:

 

The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.

 

 

Other sexes?

 

There are only two sexes (+ chromosomal & developmental irregularities).

 

There are depending on viewpoint multiple genders.  It's very interesting biologically.

 

There is some scanty evidence to suggest a person can be physically one sex, but have a brain structure or brain patterns that are more like the other sex. Generally this evidence comes for people who have undergone hormonal therapy, so it's imperfect.

 

This suggests that gender may be a secondary characteristic, like a male hair pattern or a female body shape, that can develop discordantly from a persons biological sex.

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1744390 20-Mar-2017 11:45
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MikeAqua:

 

 

 

I object to the rape culture label strongly because it is another expression of the 'all men are rapists' viewpoint espoused by some feminists.

 

 

I really think that needs comment - and I don't want to argue some holy war on this subject.  

 

The belief that some feminists (IMO very unwisely - if it happens) express that view in isolation, is likely a deliberate negative stereotype created to discredit feminism.

 

As far as I can tell, the origin of the expression is from a fictional character in Marilyn French's book "The Women's Room".  It should be quoted in full:

 

"all men are rapists, and that's all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, and their codes"

 

which in context of the experiences of the character in the novel may have been entirely appropriate, and had quite different impact than the abbreviated version in popular circulation amongst anti-feminists these days.

 

A shocking thing to read in 1977 - even if in a fictional novel - but shock treatment was needed.  I needed it in 1977.


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  Reply # 1744644 20-Mar-2017 17:07
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MikeB4:

 

The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.

 

 

 

 

Is it much worse than, say, the US or UK? Or Australia?

 

It does not seem to be - although I am not basing that on anything but general observation.






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  Reply # 1744690 20-Mar-2017 18:18
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

 

 

I object to the rape culture label strongly because it is another expression of the 'all men are rapists' viewpoint espoused by some feminists.

 

 

I really think that needs comment - and I don't want to argue some holy war on this subject.  

 

The belief that some feminists (IMO very unwisely - if it happens) express that view in isolation, is likely a deliberate negative stereotype created to discredit feminism.

 

 

Not belief, fact.  It's a verbatim quote from several feminists, a sign that gets used at feminist rallies and a hash tag.

 

Google and learn ...

 

 





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  Reply # 1744694 20-Mar-2017 18:21
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Geektastic:

 

MikeB4:

 

The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.

 

 

 

 

Is it much worse than, say, the US or UK? Or Australia?

 

It does not seem to be - although I am not basing that on anything but general observation.

 

 

I expect very similar.

 

Comparative stats are almost meaningless when many (perhaps most - some claim 90% of) rapes are unreported.


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  Reply # 1744697 20-Mar-2017 18:27
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Fred99:

Geektastic:

 

MikeB4:

 

The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.

 

 

 

 

Is it much worse than, say, the US or UK? Or Australia?

 

It does not seem to be - although I am not basing that on anything but general observation.

 

 

I expect very similar.

 

Comparative stats are almost meaningless when many (perhaps most - some claim 90% of) rapes are unreported.

 

Then where does that 90% come from?

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