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gzt

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  # 1757088 5-Apr-2017 15:12
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tripper1000:

Geektastic:
TheLastTherapist:


cr250bromo:


 


It's probably a waste of resources even chasing these type of people if they fail to turn up at court - they will come to the police's attention sooner or later


 




Couldn't have said it better!




We don't charge high bail fees here, do we? I assume not, since few of these scroats would be out on bail if we did.

In the US, bounty hunters are usually acting for the bail bond providers.


 


We don't charge ANYTHING for bail in New Zealand.


IMHO it is a key failing of our justice system. Collateral free bail, combined with concurrent sentencing (many crimes for the price of one) equals a license to commit as much crime as you can before you have your day in court and go to jail. It is win-win for a crook and loose-loose for society.


When someone is campaigning to make bail conditions "tougher" they need to be specific about what exactly "tougher" is and educate N.Z. that bail costs no money.


If the suspects family helps them out with bail money, the suspects family has a vested interest in helping them stay on the straight and narrow. If the suspects family refuse to help out .... well they know the suspect better than anyone else.


That would get you a massive US style prison system overnight.

Less obviously it would do very little to prevent tagging/damage of bus stops.

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  # 1757097 5-Apr-2017 15:31
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gzt:
tripper1000:

 

Geektastic:
TheLastTherapist:

 

 

 

cr250bromo:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's probably a waste of resources even chasing these type of people if they fail to turn up at court - they will come to the police's attention sooner or later

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Couldn't have said it better!

 

 

 



We don't charge high bail fees here, do we? I assume not, since few of these scroats would be out on bail if we did.

In the US, bounty hunters are usually acting for the bail bond providers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We don't charge ANYTHING for bail in New Zealand.

 

 

 

IMHO it is a key failing of our justice system. Collateral free bail, combined with concurrent sentencing (many crimes for the price of one) equals a license to commit as much crime as you can before you have your day in court and go to jail. It is win-win for a crook and loose-loose for society.

 

 

 

When someone is campaigning to make bail conditions "tougher" they need to be specific about what exactly "tougher" is and educate N.Z. that bail costs no money.

 

 

 

If the suspects family helps them out with bail money, the suspects family has a vested interest in helping them stay on the straight and narrow. If the suspects family refuse to help out .... well they know the suspect better than anyone else.

 


That would get you a massive US style prison system overnight.

Less obviously it would do very little to prevent tagging/damage of bus stops.

 

 

 

There is no need to apply significant bail to people up before the Beak for what in the US would be a Misdemeanour rather than a crime.

 

However, why permit people charged with significant offences (especially where there is a long history of crime) to wander the country with no surety?






 
 
 
 


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  # 1757099 5-Apr-2017 15:32
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afe66: And those who are too poor to pay bail stay in jail where they can't look after kids, maintain their minimum wage jobs.

While those who have money pay their way out of jail.

That's not NZ way.

A.

 

 

 

Perhaps they should think about that BEFORE they become criminals?






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  # 1757102 5-Apr-2017 15:35
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gzt:

 


That would get you a massive US style prison system overnight.

Less obviously it would do very little to prevent tagging/damage of bus stops.

 

 

Sure, getting rid of concurrent sentencing would inflate the prison population overnight and would not help much with tagging - we tend not to jail taggers anyway.

 

However a system that provides a financial incentive for individuals to behave properly when on bail, and for families to be actively involved in the controlling of an individuals behaviour is surely going to lower reoffending rates and reduce harm.

 

I'm not saying get rid of both free bail and concurrent sentencing, I'm saying that the two together are counter productive, and one or the other needs to change - monetising bail would be easy to achieve as it would be creating a system that many kiwi's (incorrectly) believe already exists, so won't meet much resistance.


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  # 1757108 5-Apr-2017 15:39
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tripper1000:

 

gzt:

 


That would get you a massive US style prison system overnight.

Less obviously it would do very little to prevent tagging/damage of bus stops.

 

 

Sure, getting rid of concurrent sentencing would inflate the prison population overnight and would not help much with tagging - we tend not to jail taggers anyway.

 

However a system that provides a financial incentive for individuals to behave properly when on bail, and for families to be actively involved in the controlling of an individuals behaviour is surely going to lower reoffending rates and reduce harm.

 

I'm not saying get rid of both free bail and concurrent sentencing, I'm saying that the two together are counter productive, and one or the other needs to change - monetising bail would be easy to achieve as it would be creating a system that many kiwi's (incorrectly) believe already exists, so won't meet much resistance.

 

 

 

 

Alternatively, penalise skipping bail etc more severely. If you skip bail, your eventual sentence is mandatorily doubled...with no parole.






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  # 1757112 5-Apr-2017 15:47
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Whenever I see something like the last couple of posts above, I try to think of a place that already does what is being suggested in order to make a comparison and see if that might work. Unfortunately, the place that usually most closely matches is the USA, and that just doesn't strike me as the kind of positive example we would all like to see. If getting tougher in different ways worked, we ought to see some evidence of it there. Instead, they seem to have everything we do, only worse. How is that supposed to improve anything?

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 1757144 5-Apr-2017 16:07
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The stats that I saw a decade or so ago showed that a high number of convicted criminals commit bailed for less serious crimes continue to commit them while waiting their court case. Add to this teenagers who can commit those same crimes without being restrained then the stats look even worse. This was the case with the burglars who burgled our house. While they waited to be convicted of the first burglaries they were accused of, they went out and burgled many others houses.

 

I'd like to see some research on implementing bail bonds in NZ. I admit that it is nearly always harder for the poor to meet bail requirements which is why some NZ-specific research would be good. But anyway the rich would be paying more towards the legal system costs if it is easier for them to pay.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1757194 5-Apr-2017 16:54
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I'd rather just have a lot more police, than more cowboys. Especially in rural NZ; outside of NZ's Citys policing efforts are pathetic and shameful.


Hmm, what to write...
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  # 1757205 5-Apr-2017 17:09
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afe66: And those who are too poor to pay bail stay in jail where they can't look after kids, maintain their minimum wage jobs.

While those who have money pay their way out of jail.

That's not NZ way.

A.

 

That what the bail bondsman is for. You borrow the bail money from him. If you don't show up he calls Dog the Bounty hunter





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  # 1757578 6-Apr-2017 14:33
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afe66: And those who are too poor to pay bail stay in jail where they can't look after kids, maintain their minimum wage jobs.

While those who have money pay their way out of jail.

That's not NZ way.

A.

 

That is lefty, hand-wringing imagination. People with families and jobs are the perfect candidates for a bail system - 1) they appreciate the value of money and 2) have family/friends around them to accurately judge their likelihood, of reoffending, put their money where their mouth is and also help moderate suspects behaviour.  

 

A bond system could be used to safely reduce numbers in people in remand prisons - a win for tax payers, suspects, families and if you believe they have jobs, the economy.

 

The problem is that the present New Zealand way is to err on the side of the suspect, to the detriment of law abiding people, & encouragement of crime.

 

The present system lets a suspect have their cake and eat it. Either, let them go with no bail and any crimes get added to the end of their sentence, or let them go on a bond which they forfeit if they reoffend/abscond - seems fair.

 

The burglary example above is a text box example of why concurrent sentencing combined with free bail is counter productive.

 

 

 

 

 

 


gzt

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  # 1757591 6-Apr-2017 14:43
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The present system bails people based on other factors than ability to post a bond. Adding bonding does not change much at all. Seems silly to me.

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  # 1757624 6-Apr-2017 15:03
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tripper1000:

 

A bond system could be used to safely reduce numbers in people in remand prisons - a win for tax payers, suspects, families and if you believe they have jobs, the economy.

 

 

Nice theory, but under my contract being charged with a criminal offence is serious misconduct and grounds for immediate dismissal. This clause has been in every employment contract I've ever seen.

 

So I'd be sacked.  No job, no-income.  No means to post bail.  No way will the bank extend my mortgage under those circumstances.

 

I've only known two people charged with  criminal offences. Both white-collar offences and both were eventually fully exonerated.  But both lost their jobs, their partners dumped them like a hot brick within days and they ended up relying on the support of their friends and parents.

 

In the US most people don't actually post their bail.  They pay for a bail bond and bond agent takes the risk.  Often it's the bond agents who engage the bounty hunters to deliver the accused to court, so the bod agent doesn't lose the bond.

 

 





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  # 1757643 6-Apr-2017 15:23
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tripper1000:

 

That is lefty, hand-wringing imagination. People with families and jobs are the perfect candidates for a bail system - 1) they appreciate the value of money and 2) have family/friends around them to accurately judge their likelihood, of reoffending, put their money where their mouth is and also help moderate suspects behaviour.  

 

 

What does any of this have to do with being 'lefty' - whatever that is? If you have a point, just make it. Throwing around meaningless labels like this does not add anything to any argument. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 1757647 6-Apr-2017 15:35
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John Oliver, a very humorous, and sobering look at bail and bounty hunters in the good 'ol US of A.

 

https://youtu.be/IS5mwymTIJU

 

If you watch this, and still argue for bounty hunters, then I fear for your sanity (personal opinion, of course).


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  # 1757667 6-Apr-2017 16:02
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Whatever they do in the USA - avoid.  As well as their bail bonds business, there's formal plea bargaining to "unclog" the court system. Of course if you're guilty, that might work to your advantage (pleading to a lesser charge), but if you're not and poor, you're basically stuffed.  Don't accept the bargain, the charge is thus at the high end of the scale, you can't make bail - you're stuffed.

 

It's one of the primary reasons that the USA is only 4.4% of the world population, but has 22% of the world prison population.  Not many give too much of a damn, as the ones getting locked up are disproportionately black and poor.  Many politicians welcome that, as depending on state, conviction takes away your voting rights.


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