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398 posts

Ultimate Geek


# 214495 15-May-2017 00:29
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Hi,


I am wondering what people think about the Insolvency and Trustee service making available to the public over the internet, bankrupted peoples full name, address, and date of birth (month and year) on their website for the world to see.


The NZ Gazette has been making details of people's bankruptcies including annullments since 1994.


I am bankrupted and I asked the Privacy Commissioner about the insolvency and trustee website listings, but I no longer have any privacy rights.


Two NZ websites www.insolvencywatch.co.nz and www.sharkpatrol.co.nz also pickup the listings of bankrupts and display them next to their dubious google adwords.


The Wannacry ransomware has shown how in danger we all are, let alone the government putting us at risk by displaying our private information against us.


Bankrupts also don't have the right to bring legal claims against people, either. That right gets transferred to the Official Assignee.


In fact a lot of our legal and privacy rights are taken away.


I also discovered that Veda Advantage (Equifax) password format on the credit reports they email to consumers, is the same for everyone, and such password information can be obtained from the Insolvency and trustee website.


Given this is an IT forum, I'd like to hear what people think about the NZ government making available our personal information over the internet. In the wake of the Wannacry attack and the increased risk of identity theft in general, should this government policy be changed?


Do we deserve to lose our privacy and legal rights for being bankrupted. I even received a letter from the Official Assignee threatening prison if I continue working as a sole trader.


 


Ford


 


 


 


 


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gzt

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  # 1782166 15-May-2017 06:05
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I'm not really aware of the purpose of bankruptcy and the regulations around it. Publishing anyone's full details seems basically wrong. Also sounds like a hear ye hear ye from the 19th century.

Some bankruptcies are essentially the result of fraudsters purposely abusing the extension of credit, and I'm sure many in small business will have strong feelings about that.

On the other hand many bankruptcies are the result of a bad set of circumstances like illness etc. It's a no brainier to have some details available on request from approved agencies, but full publication like that seems unnecessary and basically wrong.

gzt

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  # 1782167 15-May-2017 06:09
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Bankruptcy regulations are not an ICT regulation topic, and you will get more responses in the off-topic forum anyway. My suggestion is you ask a mod to move it to the off topic forum. 90%+ of Geekzone users are IT industry anyway.

 
 
 
 


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  # 1782173 15-May-2017 07:34
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As above, not an ICT regulation topic. Moved to a more appropriate sub-forum.




Keep calm, and carry on posting.

 

 

 

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Master Geek


  # 1782175 15-May-2017 07:38
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You might not like my response but there you go here it is for all its worth:

 

 

 

  • you have privacy just not finanical privcy you lost that right when you went insolvent/bankupt only over the debts that were incurred at that point of bankruptcy
  • bankruptcies/insolvents i'm sorry but if the court has not sealed your case/record then it is no fowl to publish those details for informational purposes;
  • why is this information valuable, it protects the public from bankrupts (people who can't pay their bills)
  • it can help protect someone wanting to invest with you or your businesses

I do sympathise sometimes situations can get out of hand, financially and sometimes circumstances can get out of control finacially, and I have even at one point when I had significant debt considered a NAP (No Asset Procedure) something that can be done as an alternative before bankruptcy; But i negotiated with those I owed money, set up payment plans admitted the truth I was not earning enough working for myself and got a paying job, and payed my bills off overtime, it was hard work;

 

bankruptcy is a tool, some people use that tool and dig themselves out of the hole and emerge for the better, others repeat their mistakes ;

 

if im wrong in this next statement I apologise but if your still running around a sole trader, then you need to stop;

 

 i've seen so many stories published in papers of people who have invested money with "sole traders" or to be blunt fraudsters who are still operating as bankrupts and they lose someones money and that person has to start over or its 2 late for them and they end up retiring with nothing.

 

 


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  # 1782187 15-May-2017 08:08
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Bankruptcy details have been Gazetted and published for decades, well before computers. Newspaper public notices carried the details and the information has been freely available for a very long time.




Mike
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Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1782189 15-May-2017 08:18
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I'm sorry but I think this information should be public.  There are many reasons why people go bankrupt, some see it as a easy way out of paying debt, sometimes things "just go wrong" but before anyone files they should be made aware that this information is open to the public once they declare bankruptcy.  

 

Bankruptcy should be a last resort but many just get a lot of debt and then file, many have done it more than once. 

 

It's better to protect the many than the 1.

 

 


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  # 1782190 15-May-2017 08:25
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Ford:

 

I even received a letter from the Official Assignee threatening prison if I continue working as a sole trader.

 

 

 

 

 

Ford

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I take it that your "Official Assignee" did you know you were a sole trader?  You should be informing your assignee about anything to do with income etc.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1782212 15-May-2017 09:04
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It doesn't bother me.


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  # 1782217 15-May-2017 09:09
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I think the real problem is there are various types of bankruptcies with some people from people who have done dodgy things, and others being (in some cases semi) innocent parties caught up by other failing businesses.

 

If you've done something dodgy you deserve to have your name published as punishment so others are aware of what you did.

 

If you're running a company where you're caught up in a much bigger collapse such as being an electrician or painter who's subcontracted and incur massive losses because of somebody else going belly up then I feel some sympathy. Many of these people may have had perfectly well run businesses but are taken out by no fault of their own and aren't large enough to absorb a huge write-down. The big problem is how you differentiate between the two. 


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Ultimate Geek


  # 1782223 15-May-2017 09:18
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As a bankrupt there are certain things you are not allowed to do by law, one of them is run a business, this therefore excludes you from "self employment", it also excludes working for family members (so your wife/mother/father etc can't "own" a business that then employees you).

 

I believe you have to declare all income (including its source) and outgoings to the O/A in a statutory declaration and the O/A can then decide how much of your income you get to keep and how much is passed back to creditors that lost out when you went bankrupt. I think there is also an obligation for you to advise of changes of circumstances (so if you win lotto you can't just keep it).

 

Whilst bankruptcy "wipes old debts", whilst you are still in bankruptcy (3 years) you have no right to amass wealth or "benefit" from the wiping of debt. The O/A is there to ensure that the creditors loss is minimised at the end of the bankruptcy term.

 

here is no breach of privacy as unless specifically sealed by the court, all court proceedings are public information including details of bankruptcy proceedings. Unfortunately through whatever happened, either in your control or not, you entered the public arena

 

 


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  # 1782503 15-May-2017 13:01
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Ford:

 

Do we deserve to lose our privacy and legal rights for being bankrupted. I even received a letter from the Official Assignee threatening prison if I continue working as a sole trader.

 

 

 

 

Since you asked..

 

Yes, you should lose those rights and more. I think society should bring back debtors prison and make you work the debt off until it's paid or you die.

 

You get to walk away from your poor decisions and saddle others with the debt, and to me that's a terrible injustice.





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  # 1782518 15-May-2017 13:17
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It's in the public interest to have bankruptcy info publicly available so that people can be cautious about doing business with people who have previously been declared bankrupt. 

 

It must suck if you have been declared bankrupt and I know sometimes bankruptcy can be due to bad luck as much as bad management.

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't employ or deal with someone I know has been bankrupt but I would want to meet them in person, hear their story and run the BS detector over it.





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  # 1782555 15-May-2017 13:59
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sbiddle:

 

I think the real problem is there are various types of bankruptcies with some people from people who have done dodgy things, and others being (in some cases semi) innocent parties caught up by other failing businesses.

 

If you've done something dodgy you deserve to have your name published as punishment so others are aware of what you did.

 

If you're running a company where you're caught up in a much bigger collapse such as being an electrician or painter who's subcontracted and incur massive losses because of somebody else going belly up then I feel some sympathy. Many of these people may have had perfectly well run businesses but are taken out by no fault of their own and aren't large enough to absorb a huge write-down. The big problem is how you differentiate between the two. 

 

 

 

 

Also, people go bankrupt for other reasons, such as the fact that they invest time and money in their business idea and it just doesn't pan out. This is not dodgy and is one of the main purposes of bankruptcy and limited liability laws: if people knew that the outcome of failure was ruination, loss of the family home and a cardboard box under a flyover, the number of new businesses being started would be very very small!

 

 

 

Some things just do not work out through no deliberate fault of anyone involved.






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  # 1782560 15-May-2017 14:03
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Lias:

 

Ford:

 

Do we deserve to lose our privacy and legal rights for being bankrupted. I even received a letter from the Official Assignee threatening prison if I continue working as a sole trader.

 

 

 

 

Since you asked..

 

Yes, you should lose those rights and more. I think society should bring back debtors prison and make you work the debt off until it's paid or you die.

 

You get to walk away from your poor decisions and saddle others with the debt, and to me that's a terrible injustice.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps we could follow the ancient Romans and Greeks and permit the sale of people into slavery for debt?

 

 

 

You assume that the people who did business with the bankrupt person/company were somehow coerced into doing so. One of the reasons why Limited companies must state that they are limited is so that other people can be aware of that status when doing business with them and be aware of the the likely impact that would have in the event of the company or person going under. 

 

 






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  # 1782576 15-May-2017 14:40
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Perhaps we could follow the ancient Romans and Greeks and permit the sale of people into slavery for debt?

 

 You assume that the people who did business with the bankrupt person/company were somehow coerced into doing so. One of the reasons why Limited companies must state that they are limited is so that other people can be aware of that status when doing business with them and be aware of the the likely impact that would have in the event of the company or person going under. 

 

 

I suspect reintroducing slavery would be even less politically viable than forcing the bankrupt to pay off their debts, but given i'm a supporter of feeding criminals to the lions I can't really complain if you want to bring back slavery :-P

 

For what it's worth, I object to the concept of limited liability companies too. Company directors and shareholders should always be personally liable for a businesses debts.

 

If you owe a debt, pay it or die working in the salt mines paying it off pretty much.





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