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  # 1782604 15-May-2017 14:56
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Lias:

 

 

 

I suspect reintroducing slavery would be even less politically viable than forcing the bankrupt to pay off their debts, but given i'm a supporter of feeding criminals to the lions I can't really complain if you want to bring back slavery :-P

 

For what it's worth, I object to the concept of limited liability companies too. Company directors and shareholders should always be personally liable for a businesses debts.

 

If you owe a debt, pay it or die working in the salt mines paying it off pretty much.

 

 

What I like about this response is the unapologetic, unabashed frankness of it. What I dislike is everything else.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 1782606 15-May-2017 15:01
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Not all bankruptcies are the same, businesses and individuals fail that is a fact of life. It is not the failure but how the failure is conducted that is important. I agree with the bankruptcy information being publically available and the falls into how the failure is conducted. Some failures are conducted honourably others are not, I don't believe in debtor prisons that is outdated and draconian, there are laws in place that can deal with failures that are not conducted honourably without going back in time. 





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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


 
 
 
 


gzt

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  # 1782658 15-May-2017 15:42
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There are clearly laws that govern conduct of bankrupts and penalties associated with that. Personally I don't see the need for publication by the government on the internet. It's a court record, and can be seen there or obtained from any number of agencies. Other than that further publication by the government seems a bit unnecessary.

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  # 1782737 15-May-2017 19:44
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I think the point here is that publicly available information alone shouldn't be sufficient for verifying ones identity - it's sloppy practice from the credit agencies


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  # 1782760 15-May-2017 20:17
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Lias:

Geektastic:


 


Perhaps we could follow the ancient Romans and Greeks and permit the sale of people into slavery for debt?


 You assume that the people who did business with the bankrupt person/company were somehow coerced into doing so. One of the reasons why Limited companies must state that they are limited is so that other people can be aware of that status when doing business with them and be aware of the the likely impact that would have in the event of the company or person going under. 



I suspect reintroducing slavery would be even less politically viable than forcing the bankrupt to pay off their debts, but given i'm a supporter of feeding criminals to the lions I can't really complain if you want to bring back slavery :-P


For what it's worth, I object to the concept of limited liability companies too. Company directors and shareholders should always be personally liable for a businesses debts.


If you owe a debt, pay it or die working in the salt mines paying it off pretty much.



All very well but I suspect the number of business would shrink dramatically, with the associated effects on employment and GDP.

I've no problems disposing of criminals to lions, however.





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  # 1782770 15-May-2017 20:39
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I think the worst thing about this is that the OP wasn't made aware of the consequences of bankruptcy beforehand. As others have pointed out, publication of your bankruptcy and limitations on business interests are normal.

 

 




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  # 1782878 16-May-2017 02:12
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Hi, thanks for all your opinions.

 

I respond for clarity.

 

I was made bankrupt by the High Court on an application of a Bank

 

Yes the Official Assignee does know I am self-employed and that resulted in their letter to me. I have since put in an application for consent to be self employed but they have not yet responded to it.

 

Due to health issues I work around 25hrs per week and my customers accommodate my health issues because I can work my own hours. I have no other source of income.

 

I had agreed arrangements with some creditors. With the bank I was making regular payments.

 

When debt is owed, the courts don’t allow any appeals or defences. That was told to me by two High Court judges.

 

There is a lot more about the bankruptcy against me that I am still investigating. I can't say anymore than that.

 

Lawyers and Accountants also cannot advise people the consequences, unless they specialise in that field or have several customers that have been through the process.

 

The Privacy Commissioner has said that other acts of law override my right to privacy now that I am bankrupted. I have also lost the right to bring legal claims to the courts.

 

I have a new IRD number which stays with me for life.

 

Sections of the Insolvency Act allow for bankruptcy proceeds to be invested by the Official Assignee for profit until they are paid out. The interest gets credited to the bankrupt's estate.

 

Slavery – it still exists. Debt is the modern form of slavery. Think contracts, credit reporting, discrimination, psychology, laws, stigma….etc. The loss of rights is the debtors prison.

 

I can see there are lots of different views about bankruptcy. I’m deciding on what laws need to be changed or created to stop the unlawful and illegal debt collection practices that should not be a part of our society. As a debtor, I’ll spend the rest of my life paying for my “crime”

 

It might be that our laws just need to consider the circumstances of the debtor and the other creditors.

 

It is tricky, as someone said that if people knew the ugliness then there would be not many small businesses. There are a lot of people like me. If I knew the whole truth before I got into debt in the first place, I would have been better equipped to have taken a different path. But instead I became dependent on debt and thus I never needed to learn new ways of how to create my own wealth.

 

I’ll keep reading all your comments and I can post back later with my progress for a better society.

 

Ford

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1782882 16-May-2017 03:54
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What's incredible about this thread is that some people really don't get it. I mean they are terribly naive about the society they live in.

Debt is the use of someone else's money which needs to be repaid with some form of interest. It's someone else's money.

Some people accumulate debt levels they can't manage, and some people accumulate debt levels they won't manage; this last is surprisingly common, and fraudulent.

In an open society it is entirely reasonable that, when lending money, overtly as a loan, or in kind as in expecting services for monies paid, those lending the money do so with the expectation they will receive the services contracted for, or to have the loan repaid. The lenders are entitled to understand if a person with whom they are dealing has a history of poor debt management - that is an aspect of managing risk. Doesn't matter if it's $1,000,000 or $1, it's someone's money and that person is perfectly entitled to understand if the person seeking the money is likely to repay it.

If bankruptcy was a secretive process, how would little old ladies avoid getting ripped off for people taking deposits and not getting the work done? Bank loans would cost a lot more, as provisions for bad debt would skyrocket. Etc.

It staggers me that some people think that there should be rules for others that don't apply to them. Sure, some people are bankrupted for reasons outside of their control, and that's tough. But my aged grandmother is entitled to know about that so she can make an informed decision about HER money, and not have it placed at risk.

It is 100% reasonable that the details of bankrupts are readily available, it is in no way a matter of personal privacy. When you take someone else's money and fail to repay it in a reasonable timeframe, for any reason at all, then your right to privacy around your debt management capabilities is lost.

If we don't implement these kind of protections for all members of society, society disintegrates to a venal level of dog-eat-dog that I don't think we want in New Zealand.




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  # 1782884 16-May-2017 04:07
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Also, debt is not slavery, it is a tool. And just like learning to use a skill saw if you want to cut wood, before you start cutting, you need to learn how to use debt before you start using it.

If you borrow to pay for a holiday, you need to understand how you will pay that loan back. If you go into business you need to understand and manage cashflow.

I have sympathy for those who fall on hard times due to illness or other reasons outside of their control. But the simple fact is most people in these circumstances work through it and don't resort to bankruptcy - not all of course, but most.

"Debt is slavery" is simply an excuse for not taking responsibility for your actions.




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  # 1782889 16-May-2017 07:06
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Ford:

 

Slavery – it still exists. Debt is the modern form of slavery. Think contracts, credit reporting, discrimination, psychology, laws, stigma….etc. The loss of rights is the debtors prison.

 

 

I tend to agree. Nowadays, people can plan on being in debt their entire lives, what with student loans and huge mortgages.

 

 

I can see there are lots of different views about bankruptcy. I’m deciding on what laws need to be changed or created to stop the unlawful and illegal debt collection practices that should not be a part of our society. As a debtor, I’ll spend the rest of my life paying for my “crime”

 

 

Actually, I think you're complaining about lawful and legal debt collection practices that you think shouldn't be part of our society. Without knowing exactly what you're referring to, I don't know whether I agree or not that they should be made illegal.

 

You may feel you're under a life sentence for your bankruptcy. I guess the alternative would be a life spent paying off your debt. I sympathise that you didn't get a choice in this, but clearly the bank thought they were better off getting what little they could right now rather than waiting and hoping that you would eventually pay it off. And the Court agreed.

 

IANAL, but I think you can clear your bankruptcy by paying off the debts that have been written off?

 

 

 

 


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  # 1782930 16-May-2017 08:43
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BlinkyBill: Also, debt is not slavery, it is a tool. And just like learning to use a skill saw if you want to cut wood, before you start cutting, you need to learn how to use debt before you start using it.

If you borrow to pay for a holiday, you need to understand how you will pay that loan back. If you go into business you need to understand and manage cashflow.

I have sympathy for those who fall on hard times due to illness or other reasons outside of their control. But the simple fact is most people in these circumstances work through it and don't resort to bankruptcy - not all of course, but most.

"Debt is slavery" is simply an excuse for not taking responsibility for your actions.

 

In general I'd agree with what you say, but under the assumption that debtor and lender are both educated.

 

New Zealanders are poorly educated around money matters. There are vultures who prey on the weak, flashing new clothes and ipads at barely educated families on minimum wage promising $5 a week repayments. 

 

I don't know why learning about money, taxation,  and basic law (eg, consumer/contracts) is not compulsory at our schools.  

 

 


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  # 1782934 16-May-2017 08:52
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If nothing else, I'd say it's likely our laws in that area probably want examining to ensure they are still fit for purpose.





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  # 1782940 16-May-2017 08:57
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Geektastic:

I've no problems disposing of criminals to lions, however.

 

Glad to hear it, considering you've admitted in these forums to activity with firearms that is illegal. You're just one arrest from a lions maw.

 

 


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  # 1783075 16-May-2017 12:44
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frankv:

 

Ford:

 

Slavery – it still exists. Debt is the modern form of slavery. Think contracts, credit reporting, discrimination, psychology, laws, stigma….etc. The loss of rights is the debtors prison.

 

 

I tend to agree. Nowadays, people can plan on being in debt their entire lives, what with student loans and huge mortgages.

 

 

I can see there are lots of different views about bankruptcy. I’m deciding on what laws need to be changed or created to stop the unlawful and illegal debt collection practices that should not be a part of our society. As a debtor, I’ll spend the rest of my life paying for my “crime”

 

 

Actually, I think you're complaining about lawful and legal debt collection practices that you think shouldn't be part of our society. Without knowing exactly what you're referring to, I don't know whether I agree or not that they should be made illegal. 

 

 

Some backgrounding in the spam that wasn't thread. http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=85&topicid=210540&page_no=1#1752877 


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  # 1783400 16-May-2017 21:32
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surfisup1000:

BlinkyBill: Also, debt is not slavery, it is a tool. And just like learning to use a skill saw if you want to cut wood, before you start cutting, you need to learn how to use debt before you start using it.

If you borrow to pay for a holiday, you need to understand how you will pay that loan back. If you go into business you need to understand and manage cashflow.

I have sympathy for those who fall on hard times due to illness or other reasons outside of their control. But the simple fact is most people in these circumstances work through it and don't resort to bankruptcy - not all of course, but most.

"Debt is slavery" is simply an excuse for not taking responsibility for your actions.


In general I'd agree with what you say, but under the assumption that debtor and lender are both educated.


New Zealanders are poorly educated around money matters. There are vultures who prey on the weak, flashing new clothes and ipads at barely educated families on minimum wage promising $5 a week repayments. 


I don't know why learning about money, taxation,  and basic law (eg, consumer/contracts) is not compulsory at our schools.  


 


Welcome to life.




BlinkyBill

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