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sxz

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  Reply # 1802128 16-Jun-2017 13:52
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Suck it up princess.

 

After 9 years of work my loan will be paid off this year and in my opinion the NZ student loan system strikes a fair balance between state funding and user pays.  


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  Reply # 1802159 16-Jun-2017 15:04
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afe66: 

Also amuses me about the junior doc complaining about night shifts and weekends.

Do they think that when they become senior docs they won't be coming in to work in the middle of the night? You know the seniors who come in for the hard stuff yet still have to be back first thing in morning....

If you think it's hard doing this in your late 20's, it's no picnic doing it in your 40's, 50's, 60's...

 

Except for ED, overnight, the hospital is staffed by junior doctors and nurses. Senior doctors are liable to be phoned in the middle of the night if something unusually bad happens. A good senior doctor would be able to manage their patients so that that wouldn't happen mostly. So the senior doctors do NOT come into work in the middle of the night (except in the most extenuating circumstances). 

 

OTOH, if *I* had to work the hours that junior doctors do, you would have to pay me a whole lot more than $70K.

 

OTOOH, some junior doctors are allowed to sleep during their shifts. And generally speaking, they're still being trained (except at night). 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1802160 16-Jun-2017 15:07
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I don't actually agree with student loans at all as it has created far too many problems, and prevents people doing courses where we need people. Also ht means that many head overseas as they can pay off that debt far faster by working overseas. How many billions are currently owed, that will never get paid back? It basically just makes the government books look better, as they shift the public cost over to private debt. But the fact is that the government has had to borrow money anyway to fund the loans, and for students who remain in NZ and get it interest free, taxpayers are paying that interest on. Also creates another layer of admin costs which the student is paying for.

 

That sort of profession does become your life. I decided not to become a doctor myself, because I didn't want my work to become my life, and it is a high stress thing to do. Although the ideal situation is to specialize, which I suspect where the big money is. There is far more to life than money. Also if someone is earning half a million a years, they are unlikely to stop after 10 years when they have accumulated say 4 million. Then there are risks with doing that sort of job, which could prevent you working. Also I wouldn't want to be borrowing 100k for a course, that I may begin to hate. Also the stress of potentially blowing 100k if you start to hate it.  Then you have to buy a house etc, that sort of loan could affect your borrowing ability. It if fine though looking back, and saying that it is a reasonably small investment compared to the income you could earn. But when you look back in retrospect, things often look better. But you can't tell what is going to happen in the future.


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  Reply # 1802163 16-Jun-2017 15:13
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Where do you draw the line though? Can you try to do 3 different subjects with no loan?

 

What if you want to start your own business, you don't get any help for that but a student loan can get you a high paying job.

 

Or are you for moving the cost from the student to the taxpayer totally like in Austria, Sweden? And if so do you think some sort of social payment is needed after graduation such as a doctor has to do service in a remote rural area, teachers as well etc?

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1802168 16-Jun-2017 15:24
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Jas777:

 

Where do you draw the line though? Can you try to do 3 different subjects with no loan?

 

What if you want to start your own business, you don't get any help for that but a student loan can get you a high paying job.

 

Or are you for moving the cost from the student to the taxpayer totally like in Austria, Sweden? And if so do you think some sort of social payment is needed after graduation such as a doctor has to do service in a remote rural area, teachers as well etc?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have to identify courses which provide the most benefit to NZ. eg Doctors, Engineers, Architects, etc are all needed at this current time, with the heath resource problems, and lack of housing we have ,  partly due to exceptionally high immigration coming into NZ. Maybe the fee gets wiped, only if you complete the degree?

 

Usually people starting a business will initially have gotten a degree prior to starting that business.

 

I believe for most university courses, the taxpayer is already paying quite a big percentage of the course cost. 

 

I would be happy with some sort of bond, like the Navy has. Where if you remain in NZ for a certain amount of time, the course is 100% free. But if you move overseas for more than a year OE or holiday, you have to pay the full course cost. Currently the courses are subsidized anyway, but many of these types of courses have a far higher cost that the student pays, than other courses.

 

 

 

The thing is at the moment, we are importing doctors from overseas, who haven't trained in NZs medical school. But many of the doctors that have trained in NZ, have left to go overseas.  So the question is, do we want to be treated by doctors trained in NZ or not? I am not saying there is anything wrong with doctors trained overseas, but there would be some  differences in the training. 


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  Reply # 1802211 16-Jun-2017 16:07
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  I don't see the real issue here complaining about large student loan at the end of it. If I was to go from being a student earning not much (if anything) to earning 70-80k plus, then it would be like I was swimming in money. I did my Pharmacy degree almost 20 years ago now and my student loan was over $50k. One of the reasons the loan is so high is that the courses/papers cost quite a lot more than some others due to the need to have full-on labs with medical/chemical equipment, which cost lots.

 

  If you can't live on $80000pa for example, then you have some issues. Plug it into IRD website and you get $997 a week in the hand (assuming Kiwisaver @3%). Seeing they are paid by DHB's in the hospitals, if you move to somewhere for a couple of years where living costs aren't as high, you will have more left over. They can then choose to pay more onto the student loan, or whatever else they please.

 

   I don't know about Medicine particularly, but in Pharmacy there is a glut of Pharmacists who live/study in Auckland, and then choose not to leave. That now means that wages in Auckland are about 30% less than most of the rest of the country because there is an oversupply. All they need to do is move a couple of hours north or south to earn lots more (sorry slightly off topic)


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  Reply # 1802219 16-Jun-2017 16:16
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frankv:

afe66: 

Also amuses me about the junior doc complaining about night shifts and weekends.

Do they think that when they become senior docs they won't be coming in to work in the middle of the night? You know the seniors who come in for the hard stuff yet still have to be back first thing in morning....

If you think it's hard doing this in your late 20's, it's no picnic doing it in your 40's, 50's, 60's...


Except for ED, overnight, the hospital is staffed by junior doctors and nurses. Senior doctors are liable to be phoned in the middle of the night if something unusually bad happens. A good senior doctor would be able to manage their patients so that that wouldn't happen mostly. So the senior doctors do NOT come into work in the middle of the night (except in the most extenuating circumstances). 


OTOH, if *I* had to work the hours that junior doctors do, you would have to pay me a whole lot more than $70K.



Not my personal experience. I'm called in almost every night on call.

GPs no, Medical rarely, Surgical and intensive specialties often.
Smaller centres even more often.

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  Reply # 1802244 16-Jun-2017 16:31
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dinamochris:

 

 

 

   I don't know about Medicine particularly, but in Pharmacy there is a glut of Pharmacists who live/study in Auckland, and then choose not to leave. That now means that wages in Auckland are about 30% less than most of the rest of the country because there is an oversupply. All they need to do is move a couple of hours north or south to earn lots more (sorry slightly off topic)

 

 

 

 

I don't think it is off topic. These things are all relevant. One problem in NZ with the pay, is that these NZ trained doctors can earn so much more by moving overseas. But these things go in cycles, and the current cycle appears to be people moving back to NZ. It wasn't that long ago when there was a big doctor shortage in my area, and we couldn't sign up to any doctors practice, as many weren't taking on new patients. But now that isn't the case, and it seem to be quite easy to now see a doctor, as there are a lot of overseas trained doctors now practicing as GPs. This may not be the case though in smaller towns.


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  Reply # 1802248 16-Jun-2017 16:36
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timmmay: NZ has a shortage of doctors, though it's not near as bad as the UK, where it can take three weeks to get a GP appointment. My wife is from the UK, she's amazed she can call up and often get a same day appointment.

 

 

That difference is not caused by a relative lack of GPs, it is caused by the big difference between UK and NZ GP visits - the price.

 

If something is "free", then it is not valued as much as something for which you have to pay - hence the number of spurious GP visits in the UK


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  Reply # 1802529 17-Jun-2017 11:09
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I struggle with people complaining about student debt. There are countless studies that show that people with degrees earn significantly more than people who don't, even humanities, let alone health. Student loans are simply an investment people make in order to improve their future potential. 

 

I have cancer. One of my specialists has a late model Ferrari, a new Rolls Royce and his wife drives a Bentley. He works hard and I don't begrudge him that. 

 

Anyone of those cars cost way more than the $100,000 student loan he might have had to borrow to qualify to be able to help me. 

 

I accept that some people study for a vocation that doesn't pay well and feel that people like teachers deserve way more than they earn, but in principle, we have a system that is fair. I don't see why taxpayers should provide free education and then have to pay those people with degrees more for their services as well.

 

Why would I pay 10's of thousands of dollars more than my insurance covers for my treatment and pay tax for free education of the specialists who charge me big bucks even for short meetings?

 

Back in the day, when Uni was free, loads of people went on and studied and stayed home as a better choice than getting a job and because they didn't know what they wanted to do. We just can't cost justify that any more. Some of those people were bonded and I don't have a problem with that. Maybe that's something we, or industry could look at again. 

 

I'd also like to see us offering more training at all levels for the fast pace of change so that we can have more global leaders in innovative disruptive technologies. 

 

Getting off my soap box now:)





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  Reply # 1802556 17-Jun-2017 12:27
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It's worse being a mature student. I can't see how you could do it.

If your household income is say $100k split 50/50 with your wife and one of you wants to go and study, you're just expected to live on half your income whilst retaining all your expenses.

Sounds impossible. More so if you have no spouse or a non working one.





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  Reply # 1803349 19-Jun-2017 12:05
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frankv:

 

$100K debt is probably not a big deal for a doctor. But it would be very bad if you didn't actually become a doctor. I wonder what the dropout/failure rate is?

 

I believe that junior doctors start at about $70K. Bear in mind though, that there are some onerous work levels required... 12hr shifts, 2 days off/ fortnight, etc.

 

I don't know if it's still the case, but it used to be that the Govt paid 85% of tuition costs, student paid about 15%. I don't know how much of a doctor's $100K debt would be for tuition though.

 

 

 

 

if you seached the doctors website (all public knowledge) and go to their multi employer collective agreement on page 13 you will see that the starting salary at 40-44.9 hrs a week is 56k a year.

 

calculator says that's between 23.96 - 24.90/hr

 

i believe my plumber charges $100/hr + GST + call out

 

our medical system is one of the best in the world (serious) - not sure why the govt is complaining


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  Reply # 1803355 19-Jun-2017 12:16
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frankv:

 

Except for ED, overnight, the hospital is staffed by junior doctors and nurses. Senior doctors are liable to be phoned in the middle of the night if something unusually bad happens. A good senior doctor would be able to manage their patients so that that wouldn't happen mostly. So the senior doctors do NOT come into work in the middle of the night (except in the most extenuating circumstances). 

 

OTOH, if *I* had to work the hours that junior doctors do, you would have to pay me a whole lot more than $70K.

 

OTOOH, some junior doctors are allowed to sleep during their shifts. And generally speaking, they're still being trained (except at night). 

 

 

 

 

Not true.

 

1. "Junior doctor" is someone who is not employed as a specialist (aka "Senior doctor). So it could be someone day 1 after graduation, or they could have been a doctor for 20 years with or without a specialist qualification (I know one, she kept having kids and so never got round to getting qualified, I know another, he's been a specialist for 30 years in India, he can't get a specialist job in NZ so he works as a junior doctor). On average I'd say they've been a doctor for 1-10 years.

 

2. Are "senior doctors" in the hospital at 3am? Well if the "junior doctor" is looking after your pregnant wife having issues giving birth - what do you think? What if one is looking after someone with an sore toe? What do you think?

 

3. See the hourly rate I stated above.


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  Reply # 1803360 19-Jun-2017 12:22
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My GP practice charges $63 for a 10 minute appointment.  That's >$300/hour revenue per GP over a about a 9 hour day.  And on top of that the practice receives govt funding via the PHO.  Doctors also get paid during some of their training period.  In NZ they are almost impossible to sue, unlike other countries where malpractice insurance is significant burden.

 

They work hard and I don't begrudge them their money at all.  But there student loan is interest free.  An NPV on their education costs and future earnings will prove extremely positive.





Mike

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  Reply # 1803361 19-Jun-2017 12:29
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Further at the specialists level, the supply side of labour is artificially constrained by the specialist colleges passing limited numbers of new specialists each year.  We recognise very few other countries qualifications.

 

Medical specialists (opthalmologists in Southland) in this country have actually been successfully prosecuted by the ComCom for conspiring to make it difficult for an overseas trained specialist to obtain supervision during an initial probationary period they had  to go through.





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