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  Reply # 1803559 19-Jun-2017 17:22
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Jas777:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Further at the specialists level, the supply side of labour is artificially constrained by the specialist colleges passing limited numbers of new specialists each year.  We recognise very few other countries qualifications.

 

Medical specialists (opthalmologists in Southland) in this country have actually been successfully prosecuted by the ComCom for conspiring to make it difficult for an overseas trained specialist to obtain supervision during an initial probationary period they had  to go through.

 

 

 

 

An Opthalmologist or Orthopaedic Surgeon if they are any good should command close to a million a year in public and private money.

 

 

So can a good real estate agent with no student loan.


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  Reply # 1803561 19-Jun-2017 17:25
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bmt:

 

That $100/hour plumber probably doesn't have many other staff (nurses, receptionists etc) to pay, or lease/rent/rates on a physical practice. And a myriad other things.

 

A lot of call outs for a plumber would be for things like a burst pipe, something is flooding, they are needed urgently etc. Hence you pay for urgency. GP visits are not generally urgent, you would go to an emergency department if so.

 

 

I don't know if installing an insinkerator in a few days'/weeks' time counts as urgent.

 

They charge for travelling an hour from another job on the way to my place. If I had know he was 1 hr away before me I'd politely tell him to don't come to me until he's 5 mins away.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1803562 19-Jun-2017 17:30
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mattwnz: 

 

The thing is at the moment, we are importing doctors from overseas, who haven't trained in NZs medical school. But many of the doctors that have trained in NZ, have left to go overseas.  So the question is, do we want to be treated by doctors trained in NZ or not? I am not saying there is anything wrong with doctors trained overseas, but there would be some  differences in the training. 

 

 

Ever wondered why when you are in a small town and have something serious you get shipped out to a bigger town?

 

Well if you live in the biggest town in your area and have something serious you get shipped an even bigger town.

 

And so on. A few years ago if you needed a type of scan you had to go to Sydney or Melbourne.

 

Being the devil's advocate I'd say if you trained 100% locally you would have squat all experience compared to someone who've worked overseas. But, since they talk and look like yous they're definitely better right.

 

I was speaking to someone the other day who is wanting to work in Chch - they said in England where they worked, they'd singlehandedly assisted in 7 times more procedures than all the specialists in that field in Chch did in a whole year combined.


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  Reply # 1803574 19-Jun-2017 18:04
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timmmay:

 

I pay about $63 per GP visit in the Wellington suburbs too. I think it's partly based on your area, and also your income.

 

 

 

 

How would they know your income? I believe you can get it cheaper if you have a community services card. But it is also based on area and your age. eg People in their 30-50ish are seen has the highest earning people in the population, so can afford to pay more. But children and elderly seem to get it a lot cheaper, or free


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  Reply # 1803576 19-Jun-2017 18:10
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mattwnz:

 

timmmay:

 

I pay about $63 per GP visit in the Wellington suburbs too. I think it's partly based on your area, and also your income.

 

 

 

 

How would they know your income? I believe you can get it cheaper if you have a community services card. But it is also based on area and your age. eg People in their 30-50ish are seen has the highest earning people in the population, so can afford to pay more. But children and elderly seem to get it a lot cheaper, or free

 

 

Kind of assuming its to do with this...

 

http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/primary-health-care/primary-health-care-subsidies-and-services/very-low-cost-access-scheme

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1803582 19-Jun-2017 18:30
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joker97:

 

if you seached the doctors website (all public knowledge) and go to their multi employer collective agreement on page 13 you will see that the starting salary at 40-44.9 hrs a week is 56k a year.

 

calculator says that's between 23.96 - 24.90/hr

 

i believe my plumber charges $100/hr + GST + call out

 

our medical system is one of the best in the world (serious) - not sure why the govt is complaining

 

 

A better comparison would be to compare a doctor starting out (where they are still very much newly minted and starting their practical on-the-job training), with a plumbers apprentice (again just staring their practical training). I don't think many plumbers apprentices will start pulling down 56K on day one.

 

I'm struggling to sympathise with those bitching about their student loans. The taxpayer (on estimates I have seen) is covering about 80% of the cost of their training, plus (in many cases) paying them a student allowance, plus borrowing money loan them the balance interest free - which they don't have to repay until they pass an income threshold, and which puts them on a path to much higher than average earnings. All in all, it seems like a pretty generous deal to me. They are being given much more from taxpayers than (say) s struggling solo mother; and are likely to have a high income and international mobility as a result.

 

Why is that so unfair?

 

Would those complaining also feel that someone was unfairly treated if they had to borrow $100,000 from the bank to start a business, which would put them on a path to earning a multiple of the average income?


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  Reply # 1803590 19-Jun-2017 18:53
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JimmyH:

 

joker97:

 

if you seached the doctors website (all public knowledge) and go to their multi employer collective agreement on page 13 you will see that the starting salary at 40-44.9 hrs a week is 56k a year.

 

calculator says that's between 23.96 - 24.90/hr

 

i believe my plumber charges $100/hr + GST + call out

 

our medical system is one of the best in the world (serious) - not sure why the govt is complaining

 

 

A better comparison would be to compare a doctor starting out (where they are still very much newly minted and starting their practical on-the-job training), with a plumbers apprentice (again just staring their practical training). I don't think many plumbers apprentices will start pulling down 56K on day one.

 

I'm struggling to sympathise with those bitching about their student loans. The taxpayer (on estimates I have seen) is covering about 80% of the cost of their training, plus (in many cases) paying them a student allowance, plus borrowing money loan them the balance interest free - which they don't have to repay until they pass an income threshold, and which puts them on a path to much higher than average earnings. All in all, it seems like a pretty generous deal to me. They are being given much more from taxpayers than (say) s struggling solo mother; and are likely to have a high income and international mobility as a result.

 

Why is that so unfair?

 

Would those complaining also feel that someone was unfairly treated if they had to borrow $100,000 from the bank to start a business, which would put them on a path to earning a multiple of the average income?

 

 

I don't think it's unfair. Mainly due to the supoosed 80% subsidy (however accurate that figure is)


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  Reply # 1803765 20-Jun-2017 08:37
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joker97:

 

Jas777:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Further at the specialists level, the supply side of labour is artificially constrained by the specialist colleges passing limited numbers of new specialists each year.  We recognise very few other countries qualifications.

 

Medical specialists (opthalmologists in Southland) in this country have actually been successfully prosecuted by the ComCom for conspiring to make it difficult for an overseas trained specialist to obtain supervision during an initial probationary period they had  to go through.

 

 

 

 

An Opthalmologist or Orthopaedic Surgeon if they are any good should command close to a million a year in public and private money.

 

 

So can a good real estate agent with no student loan.

 

 

One is useful however. The other is just a ....

 

 


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  Reply # 1803884 20-Jun-2017 10:43
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afe66:
MikeAqua:

 

Medical specialists (opthalmologists in Southland) in this country have actually been successfully prosecuted by the ComCom for conspiring to make it difficult for an overseas trained specialist to obtain supervision during an initial probationary period they had  to go through.

 




I'm not sure you are correct about the commerce commission comment. If you can find a link that would be useful.

 

I am correct about that.  It was quite a controversial issue at the time.  But rather than rely on my memory, here is the ComCom link (result one from my google search).

 

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/business-competition/fact-sheets-3/slc-agreements/the-southern-ophthalmologists/

 

It's a very blatant example of medical specialists artificially constraining supply, to line their own pockets.  In this case deliberately undermining govt investment targeted at ensuring more people received important cataract surgery.





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  Reply # 1806355 25-Jun-2017 12:31
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Son is a med student and unfortunately he is not in the least bit concerned about his debt which he knows will be very large. Quite happy to keep borrowing. He has also worked out his starting payrate of around $17.50 an hour (which is now less than what rest home carers will get) but knows in the longer term it will all be manageable.


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  Reply # 1806387 25-Jun-2017 13:56
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minimoke:

 

Son is a med student and unfortunately he is not in the least bit concerned about his debt which he knows will be very large. Quite happy to keep borrowing. He has also worked out his starting payrate of around $17.50 an hour (which is now less than what rest home carers will get) but knows in the longer term it will all be manageable.

 

 

 

 

Unless something happens. eg They get ill and can't work, or can't work in the profession for some other reason. Not sure if you can get insurance to cover those type of loans in that sort of situation, similar to loss of income insurance on a home loan. 

 

If I was a med student and getting a 100k loan, I would be worried by the amount. It potentially affects what you can borrow for a house, and the loan you can service in the future. But it sounds like tax payers, and patients are having to pay more to make up for the wage increase needed to pay for the loan, as that 100k has to come from somewhere anyway. When if we had paid for it the course initially, we wouldn't need to pay them as high a wages to pay back that 100k.

 

These types of student loans shift public debt, to private debt, which makes the government books look better. But ultimately taxpayers are still having to pay for that debt, unless the student moves overseas.


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  Reply # 1806405 25-Jun-2017 14:52
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minimoke:

 

Son is a med student and unfortunately he is not in the least bit concerned about his debt which he knows will be very large. Quite happy to keep borrowing. He has also worked out his starting payrate of around $17.50 an hour (which is now less than what rest home carers will get) but knows in the longer term it will all be manageable.

 

 

Is the starting payrate that he worked out for when he is still within his 6 year's of study doing work experience, or after when he has graduated?





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  Reply # 1806448 25-Jun-2017 16:10
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sonyxperiageek:

 

minimoke:

 

Son is a med student and unfortunately he is not in the least bit concerned about his debt which he knows will be very large. Quite happy to keep borrowing. He has also worked out his starting payrate of around $17.50 an hour (which is now less than what rest home carers will get) but knows in the longer term it will all be manageable.

 

 

Is the starting payrate that he worked out for when he is still within his 6 year's of study doing work experience, or after when he has graduated?

 

 

it can't be after he's graduated, as shown by my calculation. [23.96 - 24.90/hr]


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  Reply # 1806460 25-Jun-2017 16:26
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joker97:

 

sonyxperiageek:

 

minimoke:

 

Son is a med student and unfortunately he is not in the least bit concerned about his debt which he knows will be very large. Quite happy to keep borrowing. He has also worked out his starting payrate of around $17.50 an hour (which is now less than what rest home carers will get) but knows in the longer term it will all be manageable.

 

 

Is the starting payrate that he worked out for when he is still within his 6 year's of study doing work experience, or after when he has graduated?

 

 

it can't be after he's graduated, as shown by my calculation.

 

 

the only time they get paid before they graduate is in the 6th year of study, an annual payment of around 26k.

 

my calculator puts it at $514 a week. hourly rate would depend on how many hours they worked. but not $17.50

 

not sure where he gets $17.50 from sorry.


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  Reply # 1806539 25-Jun-2017 18:39
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afe66:
MikeAqua:

Further at the specialists level, the supply side of labour is artificially constrained by the specialist colleges passing limited numbers of new specialists each year.  We recognise very few other countries qualifications.


Medical specialists (opthalmologists in Southland) in this country have actually been successfully prosecuted by the ComCom for conspiring to make it difficult for an overseas trained specialist to obtain supervision during an initial probationary period they had  to go through.



Different colleges have varying numbers of training positions and number accepted into training positions, very much like the medical schools have only a certain number of places.

Surgical specialties have lesser number for many reasons, some linked to need to maintain volumes of practice. GP training has more numbers.

I'm not sure you are correct about the commerce commission comment. If you can find a link that would be useful.

The Australian ACCC took the orthopaedic college to court in Australia alleging anti competitive behaviour and lost.


Was big news at the time from a health economics perspective as it was always suspected that there were artificial supply constraints but no proof. Usually the argument about local registration of foreign specialists goes nowhere because of a "quality" argument and no doubt there have been some issues in this, but it would suggest that this issue may be wider spread in the smaller colleges.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/the-commission/media-centre/media-releases/2004/ophthalmologicalsoc1

Jon

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