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Ouranos
118 posts

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  #1892351 30-Oct-2017 06:37
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tdgeek:

 

You have to be joking or are unaware of climate change, what it does, and when we reach the threshold when it runs amok, and any money or resources we throw at it are too late. 

 

 

You're funny, but I'm not joking.

 

I've been studying climate change science for 25 years, and I'm an expert in economic modelling. I know more about the impacts of climate change than most people.

 

Climate change is a problem, but so are many other things. My concern is that the focus on climate change is crowding out efforts to address larger and more immediate problems.

 

You could spend thousands of dollars to put solar panels on your roof. Doing that will have virtually no impact on climate change, and in most cases will likely be more expensive than continuing to receive electricity from the grid. Or you could make a real difference by donating the money to a charity that installs solar panels in poor villages. That will give them reliable electricity and reduce the substantial negative health impacts that result from burning wood and kerosene.


tdgeek
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  #1892378 30-Oct-2017 07:09
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Ouranos:

 

tdgeek:

 

You have to be joking or are unaware of climate change, what it does, and when we reach the threshold when it runs amok, and any money or resources we throw at it are too late. 

 

 

You're funny, but I'm not joking.

 

I've been studying climate change science for 25 years, and I'm an expert in economic modelling. I know more about the impacts of climate change than most people.

 

Climate change is a problem, but so are many other things. My concern is that the focus on climate change is crowding out efforts to address larger and more immediate problems.

 

You could spend thousands of dollars to put solar panels on your roof. Doing that will have virtually no impact on climate change, and in most cases will likely be more expensive than continuing to receive electricity from the grid. Or you could make a real difference by donating the money to a charity that installs solar panels in poor villages. That will give them reliable electricity and reduce the substantial negative health impacts that result from burning wood and kerosene.

 

 

So climate change isn't that important right now, we can fix it some other time. The runaway effect of climate change when it passes the tipping point doesn't care about human economics


 
 
 
 


Pumpedd
1759 posts

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  #1892390 30-Oct-2017 08:08
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New Zealand could quadruple our emissions and the effect on global change wouldnt be measurable. You know it has to be a global solution where ALL are doing their part. Anything we do here is irrelevant, so lets not screw our exporters before we need to. A technological solution will come and I am sure mass food producers like NZ will end up with some sort of global exemption (within reason) as the world does need to eat. 

 

Global population increase is perhaps the largest contributor to it anyways. Lets steralise the poor so they cannot procreate. Now that China doesnt have a one child law, watch it grow.

 

Maybe NZ has the solution...nuke 30% of the population.

 

Labour will fix it..thats a certainity.


frankv
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  #1892404 30-Oct-2017 09:07
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Pumpedd:

 

New Zealand could quadruple our emissions and the effect on global change wouldnt be measurable.

 

 

 

 

It is not ethical to make money with the deliberate disregard for the consequences. Arguments like "Others are doing worse" or "We are insignificant" are irrelevant.

 

If we need to pollute the planet (whether it's our own rivers, or the atmosphere with excess methane and carbon dioxide) in order to make goods to sell, then we are providing goods to those other countries below cost. To put it another way, we are subsidising them in that *we* pay for the pollution, either with a worsened lifestyle (unable to swim in our dirty rivers) or we pay the actual cost of cleaning them up. That's no way to run a country (or a business).

 

 


frednz

1434 posts

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  #1892905 31-Oct-2017 08:07
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http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41778089

 

From the above article:

 

Concentrations of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere surged to a record high in 2016, according to the World Meteorological Organization (WMO).

 

Last year's increase was 50% higher than the average of the past 10 years.

 

Researchers say a combination of human activities and the El Niño weather phenomenon drove CO2 to a level not seen in 800,000 years.

 

Scientists say this risks making global temperature targets largely unattainable.

 

Emissions from human sources have slowed down in the last couple of years according to research, but according to Dr Tarasova, it is the cumulative total in the atmosphere that really matters as CO2 stays aloft and active for centuries.

 

The fact that CO2 is now at a level not seen in 800,000 years is a disturbing fact.


tdgeek
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  #1892913 31-Oct-2017 08:21
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frednz:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41778089

 

From the above article:

 

Concentrations of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere surged to a record high in 2016, according to the World Meteorological Organization (WMO).

 

Last year's increase was 50% higher than the average of the past 10 years.

 

Researchers say a combination of human activities and the El Niño weather phenomenon drove CO2 to a level not seen in 800,000 years.

 

Scientists say this risks making global temperature targets largely unattainable.

 

Emissions from human sources have slowed down in the last couple of years according to research, but according to Dr Tarasova, it is the cumulative total in the atmosphere that really matters as CO2 stays aloft and active for centuries.

 

The fact that CO2 is now at a level not seen in 800,000 years is a disturbing fact.

 

 

It is. While many people are concerned, scientists are concerned, the ones that can take action, leaders of nations are not concerned. Thats why nothing happens except for token gestures


frednz

1434 posts

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  #1895984 6-Nov-2017 13:31
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https://science2017.globalchange.gov/

 

The above link is to a major new 477-page US report about our globally changing climate.

 

It's not good news for people who think climate change is a hoax.

 

Here's one short extract from the report:

 

The global atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration has now passed 400 parts per million (ppm), a level that last occurred about 3 million years ago, when both global average temperature and sea level were significantly higher than today. Continued growth in CO2 emissions over this century and beyond would lead to an atmospheric concentration not experienced in tens to hundreds of millions of years. There is broad consensus that the further and the faster the Earth system is pushed towards warming, the greater the risk of unanticipated changes and impacts, some of which are potentially large and irreversible.

 

 


 
 
 
 


6FIEND
774 posts

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  #1896011 6-Nov-2017 13:52
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frednz:

 

https://science2017.globalchange.gov/

 

The above link is to a major new 477-page US report about our globally changing climate.

 

It's not good news for people who think climate change is a hoax.

 

Here's one short extract from the report:

 

The global atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration has now passed 400 parts per million (ppm), a level that last occurred about 3 million years ago, when both global average temperature and sea level were significantly higher than today. Continued growth in CO2 emissions over this century and beyond would lead to an atmospheric concentration not experienced in tens to hundreds of millions of years. There is broad consensus that the further and the faster the Earth system is pushed towards warming, the greater the risk of unanticipated changes and impacts, some of which are potentially large and irreversible.

 

 

 

 

Corollary:

 

Despite mankind's collective efforts to increase CO2 output and generate a warmer climate, we have yet to come significantly close to levels previously achieved by nature without any anthropogenic assistance whatsoever.

 

 

 

Now...   Fight! ;-)


frednz

1434 posts

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  #1896216 6-Nov-2017 16:47
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6FIEND:

 

frednz:

 

https://science2017.globalchange.gov/

 

The above link is to a major new 477-page US report about our globally changing climate.

 

It's not good news for people who think climate change is a hoax.

 

Here's one short extract from the report:

 

The global atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration has now passed 400 parts per million (ppm), a level that last occurred about 3 million years ago, when both global average temperature and sea level were significantly higher than today. Continued growth in CO2 emissions over this century and beyond would lead to an atmospheric concentration not experienced in tens to hundreds of millions of years. There is broad consensus that the further and the faster the Earth system is pushed towards warming, the greater the risk of unanticipated changes and impacts, some of which are potentially large and irreversible.

 

 

 

 

Corollary:

 

Despite mankind's collective efforts to increase CO2 output and generate a warmer climate, we have yet to come significantly close to levels previously achieved by nature without any anthropogenic assistance whatsoever.

 

 

 

Now...   Fight! ;-)

 

 

https://www.livescience.com/1293-earth-survive-global-warming.html

 

Quote from above article:

 

“What we need to be thinking of as humans causing changes to the Earth system is what the consequences will be to us human beings,” said Edwards, the USC geo-microbiologist. “The Earth could care less. We will be recorded as a minor perturbation in the Earth system. The Earth will go on. The question is: Will we?”

 

Now, isn't that a fairly important point, if we continue to pour CO2 into the atmosphere at present rates, how much longer can humans and other life forms survive?

 

Now here's a summary of what you can do to help fight against global warming:

 

https://www.livescience.com/1289-fight-global-warming.html


MikeAqua
6058 posts

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  #1896266 6-Nov-2017 17:34
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At the weekend I didn't go fishing because the weather was rubbish.  So that saved about 80L of petrol and 1.6L of two-stroke oil ... for a while.





Mike


MikeAqua
6058 posts

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  #1896270 6-Nov-2017 17:41
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frednz:

 

 

 

“What we need to be thinking of as humans causing changes to the Earth system is what the consequences will be to us human beings,” said Edwards, the USC geo-microbiologist. “The Earth could care less. We will be recorded as a minor perturbation in the Earth system. The Earth will go on. The question is: Will we?”

 

 

^^^ this. Climate change is actually a humanitarian issue.  The impact will be on people. 

 

From a deep environmental perspective, the earth will recover, when we have substantially wiped ourselves out.

 

But I have to say: I object to the use of the term 'could care less' to men 'couldn't care less'.  That's the real tragedy here.

 

 





Mike


frankv
3936 posts

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  #1896320 6-Nov-2017 19:17
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MikeAqua:

 

From a deep environmental perspective, the earth will recover, when we have substantially wiped ourselves out.

 

 

"Recover" ??? That's a very anthropocentric way of looking at it.

 

The Earth will continue to exist, in some form or other, whether we're here or not. We're not substantially changing the Earth, except for the 10-mile thick skin that we need to exist.

 

 


Rikkitic
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  #1896333 6-Nov-2017 20:24
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6FIEND:

 

Despite mankind's collective efforts to increase CO2 output and generate a warmer climate, we have yet to come significantly close to levels previously achieved by nature without any anthropogenic assistance whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

Those levels previously achieved by nature probably would have come very close to wiping out the dinosaurs if the asteroid hadn't done it first. Just because we haven't yet managed to do what nature has done, is not a reason to keep trying.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


tdgeek
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  #1896337 6-Nov-2017 20:32
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Rikkitic:

 

6FIEND:

 

Despite mankind's collective efforts to increase CO2 output and generate a warmer climate, we have yet to come significantly close to levels previously achieved by nature without any anthropogenic assistance whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

Those levels previously achieved by nature probably would have come very close to wiping out the dinosaurs if the asteroid hadn't done it first. Just because we haven't yet managed to do what nature has done, is not a reason to keep trying.

 

 

 

 

I am a doco freak. There was a time when Earth was fully covered in ice. 99.9 % of photons were reflected back. It eventually recovered. Same with heat. The issue is this takes millions of years, our presence is a speck of a speck in time. Who cares if the earth gains 10 degrees of average temp? The Earth doesn't, it will cycle over millions of years. But if that happened now, we will be history in 50 years.


MikeAqua
6058 posts

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  #1896576 7-Nov-2017 09:11
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frankv:

 

MikeAqua:

 

From a deep environmental perspective, the earth will recover, when we have substantially wiped ourselves out.

 

 

"Recover" ??? That's a very anthropocentric way of looking at it.

 

The Earth will continue to exist, in some form or other, whether we're here or not. We're not substantially changing the Earth, except for the 10-mile thick skin that we need to exist.

 

 

 

What I was attempting to say (as simply as possible) is that the biosphere as a whole is dynamically stable. It reacts to perturbations via adaptation of organisms and ultimately recovers objective measures of innate ecosystem health like diversity, biomass, abundance and trophic flow.  It settles on a new equilibrium that is functionally the same but at a species level may be different.

 

This is what the fossil record shows to have happened after previous mass extinctions.  From time to time the planetary conditions regulate the biosphere (e.g. snowball earth).  Most of the time the biosphere (including humans) regulates planetary conditions - e.g. climate change.

 

A planet-scale example of recovery is the carboniferous period (after the Late Devonian Extinction event).  A micro-scale example is Chernobyl.

 

It would take a solar-system scale perturbation to stop the biosphere from recovering.

 

 





Mike


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