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Reply # 1883556 14-Oct-2017 19:45
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minimoke:

 

$1,000 Id expect a whole lot more -

 

 

 

 

How did your TiVo CGA thing go???

 

 

 

Knew there was a reason I felt we were going in circles...

 

 

 

I'm outta here.




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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1883588 14-Oct-2017 20:43
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blakamin:

 

minimoke:

 

It will come back to the base issues. 

 

What is the reasonable lifespan of a $1,000 product. For me personally, spending a grand on something I want more than 2 years.

 

 

 

 

So what is the lifespan of a $150k product? Should I go see BMW and ask for a new car coz the bluetooth in my 2005 X5 is no longer totally compatible with new phones?

 

 

I don't think you're quite comparing the same thing here.  Incompatibility between different versions of a protocol is not the same thing.  You're describing something similar to complaining that your USB 1.1 device no longer works on USB-C (although it actually might - not sure) or a new standard has come out and is not backwards compatible with your current devices.  This isn't an incompatibility issue. 


 
 
 
 




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  Reply # 1883592 14-Oct-2017 20:55
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blakamin:

 

vyfster:

 

 

 

What happens if you buy the device in month 23 of the manufacturer support cycle?  You'll only get support for one month and then the device is no longer supported by the manufacturer because the product is end of life.

 

 

 

 

That's where it's up to you to do some research before you buy. Would you buy a 2015 car, even with 0 kms on it, today? You'd be mad, even with a full warranty, because the moment you drive it, it's a 2yo second hand vehicle.

 

 

 

If you bought a Z5 Premium today, you'd be nuts, because it's an old model. Not hard to research some things.

 

 

Why wouldn't you buy a 2015 car?  Is this second hand or are you talking new?  Even if new, if at a good price and obviously not the same price as a 2017 car then why not?  Sorry if I have misunderstood your point.

 

I started off kinda agreeing with you, but then the more I thought about the more I changed my mind.  I'm on the fence but leaning on the side that disagrees with you and here's why.  Should consumers have to research every piece of tech that they buy?  Do they even know what to look for when researching gadgets?  Should a consumer be expected to know and understand the difference between an Intel Core I3, I5, I7 and I9?  Should they be expected to know how to identify the different generations of those CPU's and know what each generation offers?  What about Ryzen?  Should they know about DDR2 vs DDR4? If so, when are consumers expected to cease to be knowledgeable in most things and be able to rely on retailers and manufacturers to provide the correct information?

 

Taking the Z5 Premium as an example.  Should consumers know that they are buying an older phone and that the manufacturer no longer supports it?  If the manufacturer no longer supports it, then why is it even still being sold by retailers?  Surely it should be withdrawn by the retailers? 




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  Reply # 1883597 14-Oct-2017 21:00
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blakamin:

 

minimoke:

 

blakamin:

 

 So what is the lifespan of a $150k product? Should I go see BMW and ask for a new car coz the bluetooth in my 2005 X5 is no longer totally compatible with new phones?

 

 

So the blue tooth in your car still works and you chose to buy an incompatible product. CGA doesn't protect against rash decision making.

 

 

Nope, 2 years later iphone came out. Things changed.

 

 

 

Like the OP... 2 years later, bluebourne came out.... The CGA doesn't protect against the FUTURE, but if $1000 protects you for more than 2 years, $150,000 should see me going for at least 75 years.

 

 

BlueBourne is not a new incompatible version of bluetooth.  BlueBourne is a security vulnerability and the only way to mitigate against having a device compromised via this vulnerability is to disable the feature (bluetooth).  This has nothing to do with future proofing against changes in technology.  Incompatibility is not the issue.




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  Reply # 1883599 14-Oct-2017 21:07
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Jase2985: ^^^ you are describing a physical fault. Which blueborne isn't.
Apples and oranges

 

And the question remains - when is a security vulnerability as serious as something such as BlueBourne considered a fault?  Most gadgets we buy have some or other software on them that control how they operate.  If that software doesn't function properly then the device doesn't function properly.  It seems like you're saying because that is not a physical fault that it doesn't matter? 




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  Reply # 1883600 14-Oct-2017 21:13
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Dratsab:

 

vyfster:

 

sbiddle: Like the Tivo issue the reality is consumer electronics goods have a life. 

 

100% agree. Nothing lasts forever. At least nothing built in the modern age. So what is the expected life of a premium / flagship phone? 

 

That'd be a good question to put to Consumer NZ and maybe the Commerce Commission. Tell them your doing some research into a particular issue and let them know about this thread. Post the results - it'd be great for everyone here to be clear on this.

 

 

I don't think that they would give a definitive answer.  I read on the Consumer website that it depends on the quality of the device, pretty much measured by how much it costs, and the condition of the device.  I can't remember if I read 3 or 4 years.  


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  Reply # 1883612 14-Oct-2017 21:41
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vyfster:

 

Jase2985: ^^^ you are describing a physical fault. Which blueborne isn't.
Apples and oranges

 

And the question remains - when is a security vulnerability as serious as something such as BlueBourne considered a fault?  Most gadgets we buy have some or other software on them that control how they operate.  If that software doesn't function properly then the device doesn't function properly.  It seems like you're saying because that is not a physical fault that it doesn't matter? 

 

 

no im not

 

im just pointing out that you are saying people arent comparing apples with apples when you are doing the same thing.

 

 

 

i cant see this getting anywhere with the CGA, but feel free to try your luck

 

 

 

this just reminds me of the tivo thread, going round in circles




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  Reply # 1883619 14-Oct-2017 22:01
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Jase2985:

 

im just pointing out that you are saying people arent comparing apples with apples when you are doing the same thing.

 

 

Sorry, I'm feeling rather dense - I don't follow.  What comparison have I used that is not doing the same thing?  And the same thing to what?

 

Jase2985:

 

i cant see this getting anywhere with the CGA, but feel free to try your luck

 

this just reminds me of the tivo thread, going round in circles

 

 

I've moved on from CGA a long time ago .. since page one of this discussion.  

 

I never followed the TiVo thread.  I'm trying to understand when is a critical vulnerability in the operating system of a device considered a fault and when is it not?


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  Reply # 1883628 14-Oct-2017 22:39
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blakamin:

 

minimoke:

 

$1,000 Id expect a whole lot more -

 

 

 

 

How did your TiVo CGA thing go???

 

 

 

Knew there was a reason I felt we were going in circles...

 

 

 

I'm outta here.

 

 

That became a bit unstuck. What I found was that Telecom sold the Tivo's through a separate company which no longer exists. In the interim had some family illnesses and death which has meant delving into that issue further has gone on the back burner. In the meantime the Tivo is still going - proving they have a long life. But a brief look suggested its pretty much impossible to take a CGA claim against a company that no longer exists. There's a lesson in that!!

 

 

 

Before you go heres a wee article you might like to read: https://www.techworm.net/2017/07/long-will-latest-flagship-smartphone-really-last.html

 

 

 

In brief top of line smartphones should last 4 - 6 years without any hitch. If you are happy with 1 that's fine with me and your retailer.


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  Reply # 1883651 14-Oct-2017 22:55
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vyfster:

 

I never followed the TiVo thread.  I'm trying to understand when is a critical vulnerability in the operating system of a device considered a fault and when is it not?

 

 

The issue isn't so much "critical vulnerability" its all about being fit for purpose. You may find in the small print in your contract that you viewed and agreed to pre-purchase may have some vulnerability disclaimer which would make a CGA claim impossible.

 

 

 

I don't want to rehash the Tivo argument - head to that thread for the full story. But to give you an idea of a critical vulnerability at the time of sale it was known by someone in Hybrid  / telecom that the Tivo service would end October 2017. essentially potentially bricking the Tivo. But consumers weren't told of this minor flaw. And despite the Tivos coming with a "Product Lifetime Service" which is service for as long as the box keeps functioning.

 

 

 

I only mention this as I think consumers are not fully exploring their rights when it comes to the CGA, instead being satisfied with very short lifetimes.This is fine for people that don't mind stumping up a pile of cash to stay on the front edge of the technology wave. But most of us buy with the expectation that products will do as they are advertised and last a reasonable period of time


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  Reply # 1883671 14-Oct-2017 23:16
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minimoke:

 

 

 

The issue isn't so much "critical vulnerability" its all about being fit for purpose. You may find in the small print in your contract that you viewed and agreed to pre-purchase may have some vulnerability disclaimer which would make a CGA claim impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

This cannot be the case as you cant contract out of the CGA.


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  Reply # 1883677 14-Oct-2017 23:31
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minimoke:

 

 

 

That became a bit unstuck. What I found was that Telecom sold the Tivo's through a separate company which no longer exists.

 

 

I know you have probably put this behind you, but when I purchased mine, I purchased it directly from Telecom and it was on my bill from them. So intrigued who the separate company was. 

 

As per the other thread on this at the moment, it does look like they can now be modded, which is another possible solution for some, but potentially pricey.


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  Reply # 1883678 14-Oct-2017 23:33
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ArcticSilver:

 

minimoke:

 

 

 

The issue isn't so much "critical vulnerability" its all about being fit for purpose. You may find in the small print in your contract that you viewed and agreed to pre-purchase may have some vulnerability disclaimer which would make a CGA claim impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

This cannot be the case as you cant contract out of the CGA.

 

 

It is not contracting out if the purchase contract says something to the effect of "blue tooth security is limited to vulnerabilities know at the time of agreeing this contract" (the seller cant introduce a clause like this after the purchase has been agreed )


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  Reply # 1883680 14-Oct-2017 23:39
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minimoke:

 

ArcticSilver:

 

minimoke:

 

 

 

The issue isn't so much "critical vulnerability" its all about being fit for purpose. You may find in the small print in your contract that you viewed and agreed to pre-purchase may have some vulnerability disclaimer which would make a CGA claim impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

This cannot be the case as you cant contract out of the CGA.

 

 

It is not contracting out if the purchase contract says something to the effect of "blue tooth security is limited to vulnerabilities know at the time of agreeing this contract" (the seller cant introduce a clause like this after the purchase has been agreed )

 

 

 

 

That is like a builder having in their contract that 'all roofs may leak' in the contract. Things have to be fit for purpose and last a reasonable period of time based on the price paid..


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  Reply # 1883681 14-Oct-2017 23:40
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minimoke:

 

 

 

It is not contracting out if the purchase contract says something to the effect of "blue tooth security is limited to vulnerabilities know at the time of agreeing this contract" (the seller cant introduce a clause like this after the purchase has been agreed )

 

 

That holds no weight in regards to the CGA.


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