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Topic # 229247 14-Feb-2018 15:03
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In the thread "Catching thieves – 'bait packages'" seemed to have generated a lot of talk around dairies.

I've truncated comments to keep this summary readable.

Rikkitic: "I also get angry when I see hard-working dairy owners being repeatedly robbed by low-lifes and they can't seem to do anything to protect themselves. But I still don't believe that giving them guns is an answer. The USA example should be enough to convince anyone. We need more and better police, but people also have to be willing to pay for that."

danielparker: "... It makes me so angry when Dairies and Service Stations are being robbed, usually for stupid Cigarettes (not a smoker), and a little cash (not worth the risk, really)... I would like to see the robbers heads explode. Shotguns should do it. If you are going to bash someone for cigarettes, then prepare for some high speed lead poisoning."

Journeyman: "I'd be perfectly okay with dairy owners being allowed to keep a loaded shotgun under counter with legal authorisation to blow away anyone who tries to rob them."

JimmyH: "...there's the risk of accidents (dairy owners small child come across gun and pulls trigger). Secondly, if criminals know that dairy owners have loaded weapons then they are far more likely to become more violent, and attack the dairy owner without warning rather than just menacing them, as that reduces the risk that they will get shot. I'm not convinced that you would be making the country a safer place, particularly for the dairy owners themselves."

networkn: "Nothing stops a dairy owner having another non gun type weapon (baseball bat or crowbar), how many times do you hear of dairy owners seriously assaulting anyone?"

gzt: "100 packets of cigarettes have a retail value around $NZ2500 and are easily carried and distributed. For tobacco motivated robberies less stock on hand and daily or twice daily deliveries may be a better fix. The ordering system required would have to be very responsive."

Dratsab: "I don't think they should have any sort of weapon unless they're fully prepared to use it and face the possibility of being prosecuted themselves. People such as dairy owners arming themselves will/can only lead to an escalation in the weaponry robbers take with them. Then there's also the consideration of dairy owners (and/or their family members) being disarmed and killed with their own weapons ... Minimum sentencing guidelines would be a great start. The maximum penalty for burglary is 10 years (Crimes Act 1961, s231). Imposed sentences are nowhere near this long. The system here is extremely soft."

------

JimmyH: " I think the surge in tobacco-related burglaries was an inevitable consequence of jacking up the tax so high. Addicted people will do a lot to maintain their habit, and cigarettes are now a valuable, and portable, item. It's not surprising that people are going to great lengths to steal them - a couple of hundred packs will probably net thieves more than a bank robbery now, and dairys don't have anything like the security that banks do.

I don't think there is a simple solution, and (hyperbole aside) I certainly don't think that arming dairy owners and giving the,m carte blanche to kill should be part of any solution.

I think a multi-pronged solution is needed, which could include:

•better security in shops, including HD security camera and publishing pictures in newspapers (even when the offenders are young)
•more law enforcement targeted at burglaries, especially aggravated burglaries, found by diverting resources away from pursuing essentially victimless crimes (like cannabis and minor speeding infringements)
•possibly some stings - tracking devices placed in dummy cigarette packets in frequently burgled shops etc
•tougher sentencing, including minimum sentences for burglary and aggravated burglary, and not letting youths off with a wet bus ticket slapping
•and (contraversially) cutting tobacco taxes - prices are well past the point where most people who will quit because of price have already done so, and jacking them up higher is principally squeezing families of limited means (ie the children miss out where the parents keep smoking) and stoking crime."

------

MikeAqua: " I don't agree with robberies and I feel sorry for the victims. But ... there is no compulsion to sell tobacco products.

It's now abundantly clear that serious security measures should be installed if you sell tobacco products in a small business staffed by one or two people.

In many countries the staff, along with all the high value merchandise and cash would be in a cashiers cage and there would be a time-lock safe for the cash. Any door into an adjoining residence should be secure and kept locked.

Go to to BP or Z after about 9:30pm - the shop door is locked and all business is done via a cashiers window. PITA and no doubts costs those businesses revenue, but it's safe.

I think line of sight into dairies needs to be addressed as well. You could easily walk past a dairy being robbed and not see what was happening. Many have their windows painted over to the extent that no-one can see in, and or a layout with the cashier's position obscured from passers-by with shelving.

All the above mentioned security measures are expensive of course, but maybe that's just the cost of selling tobacco in that particular business model."


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  Reply # 1958145 14-Feb-2018 16:50
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This footage is a classic example of why, when found, they need to publicly name and shame these POS.

 

And some actual punishment from the courts wouldn't go astray

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11993530

 

 


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  Reply # 1958154 14-Feb-2018 17:03
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Not sure what the point of this is. I think the comments have already been made. I suppose dairies are seen as comparatively soft targets. Cigarettes are now high value items, easily transacted. The two make for a deadly combination.

 

I think the taxes on tobacco products are ridiculous, but I also think it is a separate issue.

 

The vermin who attack dairies do so because they are not very bright and they think they can get away with it. They very rarely do. The only answer I see is overwhelming force, but not of the kind that gives wannabe Rambos thrills. I got interested in Kodi not too long ago. When I started investigating it, I ran into all kinds of streaming sites pushing pirate content. I was astounded at the brazenness. YouTube was full of people boasting about it and uploading how-to videos. It was impossible to avoid.

 

Coincidentally, at just that time the copyright industry kicked into gear. European countries started rapidly passing legislation outlawing the possession (never mind the sale) of fully loaded Android boxes. Pirate streaming sites were threatened with serious legal repercussions and started shutting down everywhere. Within a matter of days, the more public sites had all but disappeared. This does not mean that pirate streaming has ceased by any means, but it has certainly become a lot less blatant and far fewer people are relying on it.

 

What would hugely help (not solve the problem, but definitely put a big dent in it), would be a massive coordinated law enforcement crackdown involving police, courts and local and national government. An all-out campaign involving a dedicated flying squad task force incorporating AOS officers that could instantly respond to any alarm in a given area. Any attempt to rob any shop or store would be met with a a very large over the top grim-faced police presence and the offenders would be whisked away to special courts where maximum penalties would be immediately applied, with very little regard for youth and the perps would be in prison before their heads stopped spinning. With the very young, other more educational measures could be taken once they had experienced the full shock of arrest and jail.

 

Something like this could not be sustained indefinitely, but it could certainly be effective for scaring the hell out of those who think robbing small shops is an easy way to get what they want. The task forces could be moved around, focusing on areas with the biggest problems, then shifting to other neighbourhoods and parts of the country. The point would be to educate thugs that small shops were no longer guaranteed soft targets. They could never be sure that they would not be met by a police wall. An intensive campaign of this nature could not be carried out with half measures. It would have to be full-on to get the message across to the target audience. There would have to be several task forces in major towns and cities. The all-out response would have to be sustained for several months at the least. After that it could be scaled back, though not eliminated entirely. All that is needed is money and the will to do something real.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1958159 14-Feb-2018 17:10
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Dairy owners aren't forced to stock cigarettes. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable selling cigarettes and wouldn't stock them in my (imaginary) dairy.





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  Reply # 1958163 14-Feb-2018 17:14
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Dairy owners are trying to make a living. Several have said they need cigarette sales to stay in business.

 

 





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  Reply # 1958248 14-Feb-2018 18:55
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No retailer is forced to stock any product.

 

There is nothing inherently immoral about selling cigarettes - at least no more immoral than selling any other product that has a material probability of injuring the purchaser when used or misused (alcohol, mountaineering equipment, quad bikes, chainsaws, rat poison ....). Plus, no adult who purchases tobacco is in any doubt that smoking it carries serious health risks, and tobacco can't be sold to children.

 

As long as their business is lawful, and they are fully compliant with the law in conducting it, they are entitled to the same protection from being robbed and assaulted that any other retailer is.


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  Reply # 1958256 14-Feb-2018 18:59
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Rikkitic:

 

Dairy owners are trying to make a living. Several have said they need cigarette sales to stay in business.

 

 

Well then they dont have a viable business then. Close up if its not profitable.





Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 1958277 14-Feb-2018 19:22
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richms:

 

Well then they dont have a viable business then. Close up if its not profitable.

 

 

Elsewhere dairies are referred to as 'convenience stores'. Not much convenience if it goes out of business.

 

 





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  Reply # 1958279 14-Feb-2018 19:24
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Rikkitic:

 

Elsewhere dairies are referred to as 'convenience stores'. Not much convenience if it goes out of business.

 

 

Well considering that there are 3 within about 100m of each other here, 2 could disappear and have no real effect on convenience.





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  Reply # 1958285 14-Feb-2018 19:29
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I would go into a Dairy at most twice a year. The sun set on them years ago.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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  Reply # 1958294 14-Feb-2018 20:02
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Speaking from personal experience.......its an honest living.  I remember that selling a newspaper would give something like a 10c gross profit.  Its long hours for the return of a low income - just better than being on a benefit, but in saying that my families income needed to be supplemented.

 

Arguing they should not sell cigarettes is just victim blaming.  The robbers are the problem and need to be dealt with.

 

 


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  Reply # 1958424 15-Feb-2018 09:03
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JimmyH:

 

No retailer is forced to stock any product.

 

There is nothing inherently immoral about selling cigarettes - at least no more immoral than selling any other product that has a material probability of injuring the purchaser when used or misused (alcohol, mountaineering equipment, quad bikes, chainsaws, rat poison ....). Plus, no adult who purchases tobacco is in any doubt that smoking it carries serious health risks, and tobacco can't be sold to children.

 

As long as their business is lawful, and they are fully compliant with the law in conducting it, they are entitled to the same protection from being robbed and assaulted that any other retailer is.

 

 

Well there is something quite different about tobacco vs the other examples you give - and that is that tobacco doesn't have a material "probability" of injuring the purchaser, but a material "certainty" of injuring the purchaser when used exactly as it's intended to be used.

 

Selling the product is inherently "immoral" - as opposed to "illegal".  I agree that under those circumstances then sellers are entitled to the same level of protection, but note that even if a product was illegal to possess and sell, then stealing it is still a crime.

 

 


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  Reply # 1958426 15-Feb-2018 09:14
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Selling sugary drinks to minors? ; ).

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  Reply # 1958437 15-Feb-2018 09:25
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most seems to agree that it's tobacco and small cash are the robbery targets, easy problem solver. No guns needed.

 

 - no cash transactions (I only use cash during night markets, farmers markets and even now most of the sellers would have terminals)

 

 - automate cigarette sale. hard/metal box like ATM which takes video of purchaser, ID scan required and finger print scanner to authorise the purchase (like at most airports). ID has to match finger print scan. 

 

2 problems solved. 

 

 - dairy owners won't be targets for cash or tobacco products robberies

 

 - government will have database of fingerprints for everybody with matching ID. Even we could authorise alcohol purchase by the same finger print scanner. 





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  Reply # 1958442 15-Feb-2018 09:28
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Dairies seem to be making comeback with the rise of apartment living.  There are a dozen dairies within 5 minutes walk of where I live in Welly and a couple of them are open 24/7.  Very handy.

 

None of the dairies that I frequent have any visible protection for their staff, some of whom work sole charge late shifts.  I can see them being a very soft target.  Other business seem to be able to sell cigarettes without being robbed - presumably because they are harder targets

 

I like the idea of police crackdown on diary robberies.  I'm not sure how easy it would be the have police in the right place at the right time.  I could see a whole lot of resource being diverted into that with frustration being the only reward.

 

 





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  Reply # 1958443 15-Feb-2018 09:28
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Dairies are easy targets. They are low cost Mum & Dad operations without the resources to protect themselves. Add in that they are selling a highly taxed commodity that easily distributed off system and you have a perfect storm.

 

I believe tobacco companies should do more to protect the Dairy owner. Provide them with a better storage and dispensing system. Similar to a time locked safe that staff aren't able to access beside dispensing single packs from the till. I've seen it overseas. They are normally stored in unlocked cabinets behind the counter that are an easy target. A low-life can be in and out in less than 30 secs with $1,000s worth of cigarettes.


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