Anyone used POLi Payments ?

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#1964188 26-Feb-2018 08:10

There are major ALM implications to factor in when doing any sort of transfer directly between accounts.

This and fraud are paramount when building any solution, and pose some challanges that aren't easily solved with the existing AML framework and why banks can't necessarily build the sort of solution people think is simple and should exist.

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MileHighKiwi

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#1964189 26-Feb-2018 08:12

sbiddle:
The Reserve Bank inquiry into interchange fees was supposed to come out around the middle of last year. There has been silence from the incoming government who were very vocal about this when in opposition.

An announcement from banks and credit card companies is imminent. Don't get your hopes up though, the changes are minimal.

sbiddle

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#1964200 26-Feb-2018 08:45

MileHighKiwi:
sbiddle:
The Reserve Bank inquiry into interchange fees was supposed to come out around the middle of last year. There has been silence from the incoming government who were very vocal about this when in opposition.

An announcement from banks and credit card companies is imminent. Don't get your hopes up though, the changes are minimal.

Umm this has nothing to do with banks or credit card companies - it's the Reserve Bank leading the inquiry and the ultimate outcome will be slashing of interchange to follow recent changes in Australia and in the UK and EU.

It's unlikely we'll see a ban of credit card surcharges like the UK has recently introduced (refer to the failed Commerce Commission court action that effectively legalised these), but should follow Australia in legislating that this rate has to be reasonable and can't exceed what the retailer is paying.

kryptonjohn

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#1964290 26-Feb-2018 09:45

All a bit concerning and glad I read this thread.

I had assumed (generally a bad thing) that POLi was just a redirector to the various bank transactional web service APIs and didn't capture the user IDs and passwords. They claim not to store ID or password - little comfort especially from an overseas company.

POLi would be convenient as a payment method where you want to pay business bills direct from a business account rather than fluff around paying it with a personal card then reimbursing it from the business. But you can always just do a direct payment from your business account with internet banking - just a bit more fluffing around to get the correct bank account in etc.

Lias

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#1964310 26-Feb-2018 10:45

Madness.

Consumers have to chose between being rorted with CC merchants fees or a potentially insecure alternative, the commerce commission should be able to act, even if that means overruling the Reserve Bank. The entire purpose of the commission is to benefit kiwis by regulating this sort of thing.

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surfisup1000

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#1964330 26-Feb-2018 11:14

I'm actually a bit astounded.

Poli is filling a huge gap in the market. Air NZ use it, as do government departments. I had always thought POLI was a bank product as it is supported by respectable organisations.

Now I learn poli is a screen scraper!!! Disappointing. This is almost like entering your data into phishing directed counterfeit sites. Our banks dropped the ball here.

I had no idea it wasn't endorsed by banks (because you'd think the banks would have shut it down if that were the case).

I get that Poli is probably safe. But 'probably safe' doesn't cut it when you are talking about potentially large sums of money. If anything goes wrong you are exposed and the banks won't care because you broke the account conditions. Rogue employees and hackers are a huge risk to such a system.

Banks are partly to blame in being so slow to develop a new real time payments system--- it used to be said NZ was a technology leader in some products such as online banking but we have fallen so far from those days.

As of now ex-Poli user. I will just make manual bank payments from now. So last century!

surfisup1000

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#1964333 26-Feb-2018 11:21

ripdog:

So, when are these banks going to get off their asses and provide a solution like POLi? It fills an incredibly useful gap in every bank's services - low cost, instant confirmation bank transfers initiated from the merchant website.

I was speaking to a banker a while back, and his theory was that the bank CEO's are too scared for their careers to embark on a major upgrade of banking systems.

Given the high failure rate among IT bank/govt projects (ANZ in the 90's, INCIS, recently kiwibank ) just to name some biggies, the NZ bank CEO's don't want to jeopardise their career prospects back in Australia.

Maybe there is some truth in that, i don't know.

rayonline

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#1964347 26-Feb-2018 11:30

Have used it once or twice with domestic fares to avoid the fee. No issues from my account .... For intl fare we use the credit card, pay the fee and we have complimentary travel insurance on the card.

surfisup1000

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#1964351 26-Feb-2018 11:41

rayonline:

Have used it once or twice with domestic fares to avoid the fee. No issues from my account .... For intl fare we use the credit card, pay the fee and we have complimentary travel insurance on the card.

Always ask, what is the worst that can happen. If you use the banks official systems , the bank will often cover you in event of fraudulent account access.

You broke your banks T&C's... maybe you are already exposed if there is future fraudulent activity on your account.

allan

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#1964390 26-Feb-2018 12:39

Well I've just searched the following bank websites for mentions of POLi and possible indications to be wary:

ANZ - no mention
Westpac - no mention
KiwiBank - no mention
TSB - no mention
BNZ - only a link to a 2016 "Community" discussion https://community.bnz.co.nz/t/internet-banking-security-risk/329 where they state "...the short answer is that we have reviewed the services you mention in the past and haven’t seen anything as yet that would force us to take any actions to block them. We do keep a watchful eye on them, as you point out they are operating on the fringes of our T&Cs and the code of banking practice. We also accept that they are services that are actively used so they are providing both our merchant and personal customers with a useful service."
ASB - a warning that POLi breaches ASB FastNet Classic's Ts & Cs https://www.asb.co.nz/help/Poli-account2account-asb-support.html

So hardly a ringing condemnation across the board of the perils of using POLi is it?

michaelmurfy

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#1964408 26-Feb-2018 13:08

@allan this has been in the news multiple times - a quick Google search links me to this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11402521

It doesn't matter about them mentioning POLi - the fact is it is a breach of your internet banking terms and conditions regarding safeguarding your passwords (on all banks). By doing this, you're liable for all losses going forward on your internet banking.

Read more here also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POLi_Payments:

Although POLi Payments stresses that security is a high priority for POLi,[11][12] concerns remain regarding exposing the user's banking credentials to POLi, and liability for fraudulent transactions. [13][14][15]

ASB Bank, one of New Zealand's largest banks, has responded to POLi with a release stating that POLi is "spoofing/mirroring" their on-line banking pages and capturing customer information, and "due to the serious security and fraud risks" recommending that their customers not use it.[16][17][18] The release also claims that ASB has asked POLi to remove support for ASB customers from their service. POLi responded to the ASB advisory with an announcement, refuting the claims,[19] and apparently reverting the version of the payment system.[16]

ANZ New Zealand,[20] Bank of New Zealand,[21] Kiwibank,[22] Commonwealth Bank,[23] Westpac[24] and Police Bank[25] are also warning customers against using POLi. ANZ and Kiwibank have further advised that use of POLi invalidated the bank's online guarantee, potentially making the customer liable for any losses if their online banking account were to be compromised.[22] POLi's terms and conditions note "We are not making any representation that we or POLi™ have the approval or, an affiliation with, or any licence from or agreement with your financial institution to operate or make POLi™ available for use by you."[26]

Unlike payments via credit cards, payments made via POLi are not able to be reversed by the bank.[27][28]

Also an interesting blog post I came across: http://bohwaz.net/p/POLi-Payments-probably-the-worst-idea-for-online-payments-security-wise

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stinger

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#1964415 26-Feb-2018 13:20

I used it regularly (mainly PB Tech, Two Degrees and Air NZ/Jetstar). Since my bank offers 2FA, I have some comfort that even if my details are stored insecurely, I'd get an SMS requesting for the 2FA code.

rugrat

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#1964427 26-Feb-2018 13:52

I just use pay bill on internet banking /phone applic.

Bit of stuffing round first time, but save payee and then no hassle in future.

Guessing can't pay airlines that way which only leaves credit card surcharge or Poli.

Also I set up direct credit with fitness gym one time, just had to type in bank account number into their web page.
Direct debits came out fine, but what I don't get is I could've typed in anyone's bank account, all that was needed to set it up was account number and name, and maybe address. That didn't seem very secure to me.

Scotdownunder

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#1964429 26-Feb-2018 13:53

I would suggest the commerce commission should be investigating Air NZ and Jetstar as to why they do not provide secure low cost payment system, i.e. EFPOS or simple bank transfer. Especially as the CC fees are a rip off bearing no relation to the cost of the transaction to these airlines, i.e. fee per person on single bill - really !

stinger

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#1964433 26-Feb-2018 13:58

Scotdownunder: I would suggest the commerce commission should be investigating Air NZ and Jetstar as to why they do not provide secure low cost payment system, i.e. EFPOS or simple bank transfer. Especially as the CC fees are a rip off bearing no relation to the cost of the transaction to these airlines, i.e. fee per person on single bill - really !

Seriously? It's not the airlines job to offer a low cost payment system, especially when none is offered by the banks. The problem with bank transfer is that they can take days, and the airline has no guarantee that you would actually pay. I think the Comcom would just laugh at you.

Having said that, the Australian banks have introduced Pay ID last month, which allows you to pay anyone instantly (less than one minute) without needing to know the recipients BSB and account number. Would be nice if the banks introduced that here, especially since the big four NZ banks are Australian owned.

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