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frankv
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  #2020150 22-May-2018 06:58
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Geektastic:

I suppose it depends on what you need. If your needs are for, say, specialist surveyors, the chances of a pile of those happening to be unemployed are, I imagine, rather small.

OTOH if you want someone to stack shelves or what have you, not so much.

 

Perhaps. if an employer needs surveyors, the employer should ensure a steady supply of trained surveyors by having a process whereby previously unskilled workers are trained to become surveyors? Thus also providing a stimulating and promising work environment to unskilled people who want to become surveyors.

 

One of the unfortunate side-effects of Rogernomics was the loss of the highly effective work-while-you-learn apprenticeship and NZCE/NZCS schemes.

 

 


MikeB4
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  #2020152 22-May-2018 07:24
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MikeAqua:

MikeB4:


 It is interesting that people blame the safety net for the fall when the fall is caused elsewhere.



The safety net in this case creates an economic niche, which some people are happy to fill.  Employers are paying over minimum wage and struggling to find workers.  Prior to welfare people would walk around the country looking for work.


But I still think we are better with a social welfare system. 


I also think it should be a lot more generous to people who genuinely have no ability to work.  Long term sickness beneficiaries, shouldn't have to live in poverty. 


I know two people on sickness/invalids benefits.  Person A has a severe physical disability and can't undertake any work that requires either verbal communication, physical tasks or physical input of information.


Person B is taking the sealed and living at the expense of MSD and her de-facto partner (her flatmate as far as MSD is concerned).  If person B wasn't getting a benefit, person A could be paid more and have an easier life.


 



No matter how saddening and seemingly hopeless Case Managers and Work Brokers do not give up on people. No one is unemploysble, all it needs is to find the root cause and to light the spark. It's a hard road but the rewards are worth it, for example it could be that the customer has had so many rejections that they have removed themselves from the pain and stress of that. Anyone would do that after over 400 rejections, however a Case Manager can discover that and can work through that with them, find the spark and find success.

 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #2020153 22-May-2018 07:34
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Rikkitic:

 

JimmyH:

 

 

 

However, there are some people who are regarded as pretty much hopeless cases, who fundamentally neither want to work nor are they remotely employable. As I understand it case managers and work brokers  essentially give up on these people and just pay them, in order to focus their time on those who want to work and are realistically able to be placed. And I can understand why. Not only is it human nature, but employers would pretty soon stop referring any vacancies to WINZ if they had their time wasted by being sent a procession people who were not remotely suitable for the job and didn't really want it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And these are the very people who, at an absolute minimum, should be made to arrive at a designated place at a designated time five days a week and sit in a chair for eight hours listening to hygiene lectures in exchange for their money. These people have to be made to do something for their money. Otherwise you have the situation we have today. People should not be rewarded simply because they are in the too hard basket. This is what creates poverty cycles and criminal children. 

 

 

 

 

 



You are looking at this from a position of prejudice, that that these folk need to be punished. The task is to find the spark and not to pile the crap them, life has already done enough of this.
The JSA is not a reward it is subsistence and if society becomes righteous and judgemental and punishes by removing their means of subsistence they will become hungry, homeless, sick and angry. Then you will have a disaster.


Geektastic
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  #2020159 22-May-2018 08:22
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frankv:

Geektastic:

I suppose it depends on what you need. If your needs are for, say, specialist surveyors, the chances of a pile of those happening to be unemployed are, I imagine, rather small.

OTOH if you want someone to stack shelves or what have you, not so much.


Perhaps. if an employer needs surveyors, the employer should ensure a steady supply of trained surveyors by having a process whereby previously unskilled workers are trained to become surveyors? Thus also providing a stimulating and promising work environment to unskilled people who want to become surveyors.


One of the unfortunate side-effects of Rogernomics was the loss of the highly effective work-while-you-learn apprenticeship and NZCE/NZCS schemes.


 



It's a job for universities not employers. You need a degree.





Rikkitic

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  #2020167 22-May-2018 08:42
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MikeB4:

 


You are looking at this from a position of predjudice, that that these folk need to be punished. The task is to find the spark and not to pile the crap them, life has already done enough of this.
The JSA is not a reward it is subsistence and if society becomes righteous and judgemental and punishes by removing their means of subsistence they will become hungry, homeless, sick and angry. Then you will have a disaster.

 

Possibly, though I see it differently. I am not thinking of it as punishment, but as motivation. I believe there should be a safety net for everyone in society, including those who don't want to work or are incapable of doing a normal job. But I don't believe in giving something for nothing. I think that is damaging to the individual. If someone is not severely disabled or mentally ill or otherwise incapable of working, then there should be a requirement to do something in exchange for support, even if it is only showing up at a specified time and place. The discipline and structure of getting up on time and reporting for duty can be an important starting point. Sitting home staring at the TV or drinking beer kills self-respect. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


MikeB4
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  #2020177 22-May-2018 08:56
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Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4:

 


You are looking at this from a position of predjudice, that that these folk need to be punished. The task is to find the spark and not to pile the crap them, life has already done enough of this.
The JSA is not a reward it is subsistence and if society becomes righteous and judgemental and punishes by removing their means of subsistence they will become hungry, homeless, sick and angry. Then you will have a disaster.

 

Possibly, though I see it differently. I am not thinking of it as punishment, but as motivation. I believe there should be a safety net for everyone in society, including those who don't want to work or are incapable of doing a normal job. But I don't believe in giving something for nothing. I think that is damaging to the individual. If someone is not severely disabled or mentally ill or otherwise incapable of working, then there should be a requirement to do something in exchange for support, even if it is only showing up at a specified time and place. The discipline and structure of getting up on time and reporting for duty can be an important starting point. Sitting home staring at the TV or drinking beer kills self-respect. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Working with the long term unemployed is very difficult. These are folks that have been knocked down. Long term unemployment itself is a disability that takes considerable work to rehabilitate. If society continues to knock them down and punish them naturally  they will withdraw and go into self preservation.

 

The example I used earlier of a person with in excess of 400 rejections is real and reflects what I am saying. Working positively with these people has far greater chance of success than does the continuation of knock down and rejection.

 

A footnote to my example, after some time of working positively the person was placed in employment after 5 years unemployment and considered unemployable. After a number of years that person is still employed. 


MikeAqua
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  #2020180 22-May-2018 09:09
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MikeB4:

 

Its not hard really, companies fail, markets change eg Amazon has the potential to create jobless figures here in NZ that will surpass those of the 1930s. Work and Income cannot create jobs they can only put candidates forward and at that point they are in the competitive job seeking environment. There also needs to be a change in attitude in NZ, there is a 'NIMBY' attitude in many employers and while they want benefit numbers to drop they do not want these candidate sin their back yard. Having said that there are many great employers that take a good many candidates offered by Work and Income.  

 

 

Yet every week or two you see some sector or business on the TV complaining that they can't find employees.  I.e. jobs are available but they can't find people for them. This includes relatively generic labouring jobs, that almost anyone could do.

 

I know people in Northland for example who struggle to find employees to drive forklifts, even though they are prepared to fully train people. Yet Northland has high unemployment and economic deprivation.





Mike


 
 
 
 


Aaroona
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  #2020187 22-May-2018 09:19
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Genuinely thought this was a work for Dole ad or something yell

 

 






MikeB4
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  #2020207 22-May-2018 09:41
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MikeAqua:

 

MikeB4:

 

Its not hard really, companies fail, markets change eg Amazon has the potential to create jobless figures here in NZ that will surpass those of the 1930s. Work and Income cannot create jobs they can only put candidates forward and at that point they are in the competitive job seeking environment. There also needs to be a change in attitude in NZ, there is a 'NIMBY' attitude in many employers and while they want benefit numbers to drop they do not want these candidate sin their back yard. Having said that there are many great employers that take a good many candidates offered by Work and Income.  

 

 

Yet every week or two you see some sector or business on the TV complaining that they can't find employees.  I.e. jobs are available but they can't find people for them. This includes relatively generic labouring jobs, that almost anyone could do.

 

I know people in Northland for example who struggle to find employees to drive forklifts, even though they are prepared to fully train people. Yet Northland has high unemployment and economic deprivation.

 

 

 

 

It is a sad indictment but many employers are reluctant to hire someone who is unemployed.


reven
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  #2020216 22-May-2018 10:01
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but if they did that, labour would lose all their voters....


JimmyH
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  #2020226 22-May-2018 10:22
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MikeB4:

 

No matter how saddening and seemingly hopeless Case Managers and Work Brokers do not give up on people. No one is unemploysble, all it needs is to find the root cause and to light the spark.

 

Sadly, some people are unemployable. For various reasons I have come across a couple in a past life, and as I said earlier I know some ex-WINZ employees. For example, some of the long-term substance abusers on WINZ's books will never work in open employment. It's not a question of attitude so much as their brains basically being "fried" from what they have done.

 

MikeB4: You are looking at this from a position of prejudice, that that these folk need to be punished. The task is to find the spark and not to pile the crap them, life has already done enough of this.

 

I mostly agree with this. However, there are a few people for whom this is likely a good idea. I'm thinking of people who need to get used to the concept of getting out of bed before 8 in the morning (and making them do so can help with this). I'm also thinking of people that WINZ have suspect (but can't prove) are working under the table for cash as well as claiming fraudulently  a benefit - making them spend days doing employment-related activities can be a good way of flushing them out, as it's hard to do both at the same time. And, I understand, there are more than a few people in the latter category.


MikeB4
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  #2020236 22-May-2018 10:35
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I simply will not accept that someone is unemployable. As for the subject of Benefit abuse is a whole different topic and again very complex, nothing is a simple as it may seem.


frankv
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  #2020250 22-May-2018 11:08
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Rikkitic:

 

People should not be rewarded simply because they are in the too hard basket.

 

 

You think that being on the dole is a rewarding experience???? Wow! Just wow.

 

 


Rikkitic

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  #2020256 22-May-2018 11:19
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frankv:

 

Rikkitic:

 

People should not be rewarded simply because they are in the too hard basket.

 

 

You think that being on the dole is a rewarding experience???? Wow! Just wow.

 

 

 

 

That is a mischievous misreading of the point I am making. You know better.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


frankv
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  #2020309 22-May-2018 12:50
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Rikkitic:

 

frankv:

 

Rikkitic:

 

People should not be rewarded simply because they are in the too hard basket.

 

 

You think that being on the dole is a rewarding experience???? Wow! Just wow.

 

 

That is a mischievous misreading of the point I am making. You know better.

 

 

Michievous... Mea culpa. Misreading... I don't think so.

 

The point I wanted to make the point that life on the dole is a demeaning, negative experience where you don't get to participate in lots of society's good things. It's not something that people choose to do, unless the alternative is worse.

 

But you also impy that giving someone the dole is in some way a reward. That is neoliberalism at its worst. People are *not* being rewarded when they receive what they are entitled to. And every person is *entitled* to food, water, shelter, clothing. If our society collectively thinks that people should work for a living, it should make work available for everyone. If it is really "too hard" to find people work, then society hasn't provided the appropriate job.

 

Of course, if there are plenty of jobs to go round, it means that people don't stay in jobs where they are mistreated or there's no advancement or bored stupid; they move on to a better job. And that interferes with profits.

 

 


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