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  Reply # 2026950 1-Jun-2018 14:55
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surfisup1000:

 

MikeB4:

 

Amazons clear tax aversion shows that they are not a good corporate citizen, not only are they a major tax avoider they are showing they will not assist in tax collection in the countries they do business. So they are a leach on the markets they operate in and intend to give nothing back.

 

 

I would argue exactly the opposite .

 

Amazon are a very good corporate citizen, complying with all laws while providing a service of which the world has never seen before. 

 

With respect to international taxation, the OECD recognises there is a problem and are working on it.   It is not so simple as you seem to make out. International tax law is not something that NZ can go alone on (backfiring spectacularly) . Rather, it requires the big OECD nations to come up with a solution. 

 

Instead of calling Amazon names ( a 'leach on markets'), what do you want them to do? Voluntary tax payments? 

 

 

In the 2016-2017 fiscal year Amazon had revenue of $US177Billion, a bottom line profit of #US3.33Billion their total tax payment for that fiscal year was $US0.00. I won't even go into their record on staff wellbeing etc here that is a different saga.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 2026951 1-Jun-2018 14:56
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Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 

Amazon has a corporate presence in NZ

 

 

Thats debatable. They have an online presence. Down the rabbit hole we go....

 

Should we be expecting all online retailers that ship to NZ to collect GST? Or are we just going with the big ones?its a half baked solution anyway.

 

 

They have a physical presence here.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 2026952 1-Jun-2018 15:01
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sbiddle:

 

But Amazon already collect NZ GST, duty and IETF fees on products that incur these charges. What are the added logistics you speak of?

 

 

I'm confused. I have never paid any of that on any of my Amazon purchases. Thats for goods shipped to my youshop address, and for some goods which Amazon have shipped directly to NZ. Maybe this is new, have not purchased anything from Amazon for about 3 months now.


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  Reply # 2026953 1-Jun-2018 15:01
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MikeB4:

 

They have a physical presence here.

 

 

Where is there store? I would like to go visit.


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  Reply # 2026956 1-Jun-2018 15:06
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Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 

They have a physical presence here.

 

 

Where is there store? I would like to go visit.

 

 

Amazon does considerably more than sell trinkets and books online.

 

 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 2026958 1-Jun-2018 15:08
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MikeB4:

 

In the 2016-2017 fiscal year Amazon had revenue of $US177Billion, a bottom line profit of #US3.33Billion their total tax payment for that fiscal year was $US0.00. I won't even go into their record on staff wellbeing etc here that is a different saga.

 

 

And how much of that was made from NZ? Come on Mike. its becoming clear that you have an axe to grind with large successful corporations. its called Tax avoidance, and its not a crime.

 

 


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  Reply # 2026959 1-Jun-2018 15:09
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MikeB4:

 

Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 

They have a physical presence here.

 

 

Where is there store? I would like to go visit.

 

 

Amazon does considerably more than sell trinkets and books online.

 

 

 

 

Yes they do. I'm still struggling though with your view that they have a physical presence.


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  Reply # 2026960 1-Jun-2018 15:10
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Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 

In the 2016-2017 fiscal year Amazon had revenue of $US177Billion, a bottom line profit of #US3.33Billion their total tax payment for that fiscal year was $US0.00. I won't even go into their record on staff wellbeing etc here that is a different saga.

 

 

And how much of that was made from NZ? Come on Mike. its becoming clear that you have an axe to grind with large successful corporations. its called Tax avoidance, and its not a crime.

 

 

Tax avoidance is not a crime. Being greedy and not contributing to society in general leaves a bad taste, especially when everyone is paying their 39%, GST, levies. But this is not something Amazon is doing alone. Microsoft, Adobe, LinkedIn, Apple, Facebook all do this. Those who can, do. Others... Well we pay taxes.





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  Reply # 2026963 1-Jun-2018 15:17
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MikeB4:

 

Amazons clear tax aversion shows that they are not a good corporate citizen, not only are they a major tax avoider they are showing they will not assist in tax collection in the countries they do business. So they are a leach on the markets they operate in and intend to give nothing back.

 

 

There are different taxes and laws in every US state. It is my belief Amazon is trying to bolster its Aussie operation which is probably losing millions.


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  Reply # 2026964 1-Jun-2018 15:20
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freitasm:

 

Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 

In the 2016-2017 fiscal year Amazon had revenue of $US177Billion, a bottom line profit of #US3.33Billion their total tax payment for that fiscal year was $US0.00. I won't even go into their record on staff wellbeing etc here that is a different saga.

 

 

And how much of that was made from NZ? Come on Mike. its becoming clear that you have an axe to grind with large successful corporations. its called Tax avoidance, and its not a crime.

 

 

Tax avoidance is not a crime. Being greedy and not contributing to society in general leaves a bad taste, especially when everyone is paying their 39%, GST, levies. But this is not something Amazon is doing alone. Microsoft, Adobe, LinkedIn, Apple, Facebook all do this. Those who can, do. Others... Well we pay taxes.

 

 

Not every NZer pays taxes fairly. A lot of those that are self employed have various mechanisms to pay less or no tax. 

 

Another example is farmers who can write off most of their cost of living against their farm and pay little tax yet usually gets cheap food and produce. A lot of farmers end up writing so much off that they are claiming working for families.

 

Not illegal at all. Well within rules.


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  Reply # 2026965 1-Jun-2018 15:21
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MikeB4:

 

Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 

They have a physical presence here.

 

 

Where is there store? I would like to go visit.

 

 

Amazon does considerably more than sell trinkets and books online.

 

 

Mike, that's true, and the growth segment of their business is selling other peoples' stuff through their webService enabled eCommerce system. Lots of small businesses are hooked into it with Amazon selling and fulfilling the deal.

 

But I believe you are mistaken if you think they have a physical presence in NZ.

 

There's absolutely no reason why they should be paying tax in NZ as they don't operate in NZ. If they sell/ship something to NZ from the USA then that business is in the USA and taxable in the USA not NZ. If, as is the case presently, there is GST payable, then it is payable by the importer not Amazon. Amazon may agree to collect this on behalf of NZ but based on what's happening in Australia I doubt it will happen.

 

 


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  Reply # 2026969 1-Jun-2018 15:26
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Pumpedd:

 

NZer pays taxes fairly. A lot of those that are self employed have various mechanisms to pay less or no tax. 

 

 

This is a bit of a myth. You can only deduct business expenses from your income and you can only pay no tax if you make no net profit after expenses. No tax means you made no income and I don't know of any surviving small business or contractor or self employed person who survives on no income.

 

Further, the onus is on the taxpayer to prove an expense is business related. If IRD want to, they can rather arbitrarily re-assess your tax liability and it is up to you to prove they got it wrong. Somewhere between expensive, difficult and impossible to do.

 

Short answer - anyone making a living out of a business that pays little or no tax is committing tax fraud. You cannot do this legitimately.

 

It's almost at the point where it's not worth setting up a business (with all the economic and social benefits of creating employment and economic activity). Too much extra work and not enough benefit.

 

 


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  Reply # 2026970 1-Jun-2018 15:31
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kryptonjohn:

 

Mike, that's true, and the growth segment of their business is selling other peoples' stuff through their webService enabled eCommerce system. Lots of small businesses are hooked into it with Amazon selling and fulfilling the deal.

 

But I believe you are mistaken if you think they have a physical presence in NZ.

 

There's absolutely no reason why they should be paying tax in NZ as they don't operate in NZ. If they sell/ship something to NZ from the USA then that business is in the USA and taxable in the USA not NZ. If, as is the case presently, there is GST payable, then it is payable by the importer not Amazon. Amazon may agree to collect this on behalf of NZ but based on what's happening in Australia I doubt it will happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I may very well be mistaken but the meetings my wife has with them are not via Telecomference 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 2026976 1-Jun-2018 15:41
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Wiggum:

 

sbiddle:

 

But Amazon already collect NZ GST, duty and IETF fees on products that incur these charges. What are the added logistics you speak of?

 

 

I'm confused. I have never paid any of that on any of my Amazon purchases. Thats for goods shipped to my youshop address, and for some goods which Amazon have shipped directly to NZ. Maybe this is new, have not purchased anything from Amazon for about 3 months now.

 

 

Well for a start Amazon can't collect taxes for goods shipped to a YouShop address because that's a US address, not a NZ one. These purchases are not liable for NZ taxes as far as Amazon is concerned.

 

Amazon have collected GST, duty and IETF on goods were this is required to be paid and have done this for a number of years - if I took a guess I'd say probably 3-4 years.

 

Edit: It seems Amazon have been collecting this since around 2011 or 2012.

 

 


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  Reply # 2026978 1-Jun-2018 15:46
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kryptonjohn:

 

But I believe you are mistaken if you think they have a physical presence in NZ.

 

 

I thought they had offices in Auckland and Wellington for their AWS people?

 

They's currently trying to fill 4 jobs in Auckland and 5 in Wellington: https://www.amazon.jobs/location/new-zealand


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