Amazon to Block AU buyers from purchasing from Amazon.com

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#2026981 1-Jun-2018 15:48

MikeB4:

kryptonjohn:

Mike, that's true, and the growth segment of their business is selling other peoples' stuff through their webService enabled eCommerce system. Lots of small businesses are hooked into it with Amazon selling and fulfilling the deal.

But I believe you are mistaken if you think they have a physical presence in NZ.

There's absolutely no reason why they should be paying tax in NZ as they don't operate in NZ. If they sell/ship something to NZ from the USA then that business is in the USA and taxable in the USA not NZ. If, as is the case presently, there is GST payable, then it is payable by the importer not Amazon. Amazon may agree to collect this on behalf of NZ but based on what's happening in Australia I doubt it will happen.

I may very well be mistaken but the meetings my wife has with them are not via Telecomference

They may well have marketing and other non profit generating roles in NZ. I know that Google do as well. If so they'll be making a loss here as they have expenses but no revenue. So I will refine my position to: they don't have a physical sales presence in NZ.

To be taxable in NZ the likes of Amazon and Google need to make profit in NZ. Selling from a USA website and fulfillment centre to a customer in NZ is not making a profit in NZ, but they should be paying tax in the USA. If you sold a widget from your NZ business to a customer in the USA and made a profit on it, you would be taxed in NZ on that. You wouldn't expect to be getting a tax bill from the US government as well, would you?

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

kryptonjohn

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#2026983 1-Jun-2018 15:50

MurrayM:

kryptonjohn:

But I believe you are mistaken if you think they have a physical presence in NZ.

I thought they had offices in Auckland and Wellington for their AWS people?

They's currently trying to fill 4 jobs in Auckland and 5 in Wellington: https://www.amazon.jobs/location/new-zealand

Yeah I should have said they don't have a physical sales presence in NZ. Your orders are not placed against a NZ based supplier or website nor fulfilled by a NZ based distribution centre.

tdgeek

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#2026985 1-Jun-2018 15:52

kryptonjohn:

. If, as is the case presently, there is GST payable, then it is payable by the importer not Amazon. Amazon may agree to collect this on behalf of NZ but based on what's happening in Australia I doubt it will happen.

Ultimately the end consumer pays GST as the other levels in the food chain collect to and claim it back. But at the moment for most personal imports its not collected at all, or paid by the consumer. Its far easier to have one company collecting it from the consumer (as Amazon et al are the retail store) than each of us going to Post Shop to pick up our good and pay the GST.

Over time, NZ will lose tax revenue. It probably makes sense to remove GST and tax all NZ consumers some other way.

tdgeek

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#2026986 1-Jun-2018 15:53

And the topic here is GST not Income tax

kryptonjohn

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#2026990 1-Jun-2018 16:00

tdgeek:

kryptonjohn:

. If, as is the case presently, there is GST payable, then it is payable by the importer not Amazon. Amazon may agree to collect this on behalf of NZ but based on what's happening in Australia I doubt it will happen.

Ultimately the end consumer pays GST as the other levels in the food chain collect to and claim it back. But at the moment for most personal imports its not collected at all, or paid by the consumer. Its far easier to have one company collecting it from the consumer (as Amazon et al are the retail store) than each of us going to Post Shop to pick up our good and pay the GST.

Over time, NZ will lose tax revenue. It probably makes sense to remove GST and tax all NZ consumers some other way.

This is true. However apparently the cost of collecting GST from low price imported items is less than the compliance cost so it's not been done in the past. Now we see Amazon saying it's not worth it either and blocking Australia from their USA business.

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#2026997 1-Jun-2018 16:09

tdgeek:
Its not hard. Add 15% tax to items shipped to NZ. Earn interest until you send the funds in one transfer to the IRD. ;

What exchange rate do you use when do that one transfer?

The exchange rate would’ve been different at each sale point.
Are companies suppose to now have 1000’s of small amounts in different hedge funds to protect against currency flucations now.
With US taxes, different states may charge different taxes, but at least $5 collected now is $5 to pay later.

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#2027000 1-Jun-2018 16:11

kryptonjohn:

This is true. However apparently the cost of collecting GST from low price imported items is less than the compliance cost so it's not been done in the past. Now we see Amazon saying it's not worth it either and blocking Australia from their USA business.

Its a real pity. Yes Amazon is not in NZ and yes, GST is end user playable, not their problem, but its a global issue that all online sellers are causing. Its nit hard for Amazon to collect 15%, and earn 2 weeks interest for free every month, and transmit the computer generated one page GST return. The fairness is that there is a level playing field. But there is an unfairness to Amazon, which is that NZ cannot expect every smaller online operator to keep up with taxes for every country they export to, so then Amazon is the loser as others can sell cheaper.

GST is regressive. A poor person pays the same tax on a loaf of bread as a billionaire.

Income Tax isnt, so it make sense to replace GST with Income Tax, to a level where the tax take is as it is now. How that works with a business is a wider issue.

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#2027007 1-Jun-2018 16:21

A billionaire can avoid local taxes by jumping on a plane.
It would be part of their lifestyle traveling, so not just hoping on plane to avoid cost, they may even be able to right off part of plane cost for taxes. GST still not a level playing field.

surfisup1000

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#2027040 1-Jun-2018 16:33

freitasm:

Tax avoidance is not a crime. Being greedy and not contributing to society in general leaves a bad taste, especially when everyone is paying their 39%, GST, levies. But this is not something Amazon is doing alone. Microsoft, Adobe, LinkedIn, Apple, Facebook all do this. Those who can, do. Others... Well we pay taxes.

Ah, now we enter the destructive debate of what is greedy and what is not.

Who should decide that? JP's? Or maybe the government should be able to declare someone greedy and tax them extra by way of that declaration.

The property investor who pays no tax, are they greedy? What types of tax avoidance should be deemed 'greedy'?

Lets look at the tax laws, not the taxpayers who owe it to themselves to only pay the minimum amount of tax.

The OECD are working on fixing international taxation, here....

http://www.oecd.org/ctp/beps-actions.htm

We're in a transitional period , just be patient. Calling people greedy etc is just not the way to fix this.

tdgeek

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#2027042 1-Jun-2018 16:37

rugrat: A billionaire can avoid local taxes by jumping on a plane.
It would be part of their lifestyle traveling, so not just hoping on plane to avoid cost, they may even be able to right off part of plane cost for taxes. GST still not a level playing field.

LOL, ok, not sure how that compares to my bread example. GST is regressive, thats what I said. So if we cannot tax consumption via the goods consumed in NZ, we the tax the income that will be used to buy consumption goods. Thats fairer. Then we have the malarky of a tax return to recover tax paid but not spend, i.e. saved, or rent, or overseas transmissions, etc. Or we make a blanket % that over the population gives us the current GST tax take.

Re exchange rates, Amazon charge US$ when you buy here from them? So they collect 15% in US$, so they are not affected. Transmitted to IRD once a month, and NZ gets whatever rate existed, that will average out.

surfisup1000

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#2027043 1-Jun-2018 16:38

MikeB4:

In the 2016-2017 fiscal year Amazon had revenue of $US177Billion, a bottom line profit of #US3.33Billion their total tax payment for that fiscal year was $US0.00.

And, the laws are being worked on by the OECD to resolve the loopholes that amazon are using to reduce their tax liabilities.

If there were no plans to address this, then I'd be on your side.

da5id

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#2027051 1-Jun-2018 16:56

Australian blu ray collectors aren't happy. It means they won't be able to get hard-to-find discs from the Amazon stores in the UK, Germany, France etc shipped down under. Everything will have to go through the Australian Amazon store. One collector on a thread at blu-ray.com is saying that she had anime disks pre-ordered from Amazon.com but now she had be told they won't ship.

To say I'm pissed off is now a massive understatement. Just been doing an online chat with Amazon and asked a question regarding my eight Sentai Blu-ray pre-orders for Aug-Dec and they said that due to this issue, they probably won't go through.

People are peeved to say the least.

THREAD

tdgeek

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#2027055 1-Jun-2018 17:04

da5id:

Australian blu ray collectors aren't happy. It means they won't be able to get hard-to-find discs from the Amazon stores in the UK, Germany, France etc shipped down under. Everything will have to go through the Australian Amazon store. One collector on a thread at blu-ray.com is saying that she had anime disks pre-ordered from Amazon.com but now she had be told they won't ship.

To say I'm pissed off is now a massive understatement. Just been doing an online chat with Amazon and asked a question regarding my eight Sentai Blu-ray pre-orders for Aug-Dec and they said that due to this issue, they probably won't go through.

People are peeved to say the least.

THREAD

Very! One said this "I'm just as annoyed as you all, but understand that Amazon are the ones taking the shortcut here. They had the option to do what they do in the UK - selective add VAT depending on the shipping location, but no, they decide to strip access to their stores and funnel all traffic to a crappy global site."

As I see it, the rational thing is to collect the GST and remit to that country's IRD. Not hard. Maybe Amazon want to play hardball and take on a Govt? Maybe they want to retain the 15% competitive advantage? Maybe they want to fastback online taking over local retail? End of the day the people blame the Govt, so support anti competitive business practices.

surfisup1000

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#2027057 1-Jun-2018 17:06

tdgeek:

Very! One said this "I'm just as annoyed as you all, but understand that Amazon are the ones taking the shortcut here. They had the option to do what they do in the UK - selective add VAT depending on the shipping location, but no, they decide to strip access to their stores and funnel all traffic to a crappy global site."

As I see it, the rational thing is to collect the GST and remit to that country's IRD. Not hard. Maybe Amazon want to play hardball and take on a Govt? Maybe they want to retain the 15% competitive advantage? Maybe they want to fastback online taking over local retail? End of the day the people blame the Govt, so support anti competitive business practices.

Do you think they care about NZ sales? It is a fraction of a fraction of a percent.

da5id

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#2027059 1-Jun-2018 17:08

Yup, it's like we're going back to the internet of the 1990s with it's isolationism when hardly anything would ship down under.

With the internet it's supposed to be a global marketplace, but policies like this are closing us off from buying the goods we want.

And if the goods aren't available locally anyway (which most aren't) then what is the point?

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