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  Reply # 2027497 2-Jun-2018 13:37
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da5id:

 

gzt: Imo Amazon intends to geoblock in AU simply to drive traffic to the AU distribution center. It's not that smart imo.

 

Yeh, It still sucks. If the same product was available at its Australian store, I would say all well and good, but it isn't. 

 

Ultimately, it still prevents people from getting the goods they want. The global marketplace is suddenly less global and the whole reason this is goes back to the Govt charging tax on goods that aren't even sold in Australia - rather cheeky if you ask me.  The net result is a lot of pissed off people. 

 

 

The goods are sold to Australian consumers and delivered to be used in Australia. The GST is a consumption tax on locally consumed goods. Why do you think this is a bit cheeky? If online companies don't participate in the tax system then the burden falls to the rest of the economy (ie consumers and local companies) to fund the essential services of that economy. If a business derives economic benefit from an economy IMO it is entirely reasonable that they contribute to that society. 

 

It goes back to Amazon choosing not to participate in a market, although it will be temporary. They have a long history of behaving in a predatory way towards local communities, suppliers and their workforce. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/technology/writers-feel-an-amazon-hachette-spat.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3As%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A8%22%7D

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amir-barnea/great-deals-dont-justify-amazons-predatory-behaviour_a_23205519/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?_r=2

 

This isn't unique to NZ/Australia, Amazon have tried to avoid paying sales taxes in most municipalities and they are slowly being brought to a more normal level of participation in the economies in which they participate.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-09/amazon-s-sales-tax-fight-is-heating-up-as-states-crack-down

 

 


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  Reply # 2027512 2-Jun-2018 15:06
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Handle9:

 

da5id:

 

gzt: Imo Amazon intends to geoblock in AU simply to drive traffic to the AU distribution center. It's not that smart imo.

 

Yeh, It still sucks. If the same product was available at its Australian store, I would say all well and good, but it isn't. 

 

Ultimately, it still prevents people from getting the goods they want. The global marketplace is suddenly less global and the whole reason this is goes back to the Govt charging tax on goods that aren't even sold in Australia - rather cheeky if you ask me.  The net result is a lot of pissed off people. 

 

 

The goods are sold to Australian consumers and delivered to be used in Australia. The GST is a consumption tax on locally consumed goods. Why do you think this is a bit cheeky? If online companies don't participate in the tax system then the burden falls to the rest of the economy (ie consumers and local companies) to fund the essential services of that economy. If a business derives economic benefit from an economy IMO it is entirely reasonable that they contribute to that society. 

 

It goes back to Amazon choosing not to participate in a market, although it will be temporary. They have a long history of behaving in a predatory way towards local communities, suppliers and their workforce. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/technology/writers-feel-an-amazon-hachette-spat.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3As%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A8%22%7D

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amir-barnea/great-deals-dont-justify-amazons-predatory-behaviour_a_23205519/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?_r=2

 

This isn't unique to NZ/Australia, Amazon have tried to avoid paying sales taxes in most municipalities and they are slowly being brought to a more normal level of participation in the economies in which they participate.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-09/amazon-s-sales-tax-fight-is-heating-up-as-states-crack-down

 

 

 

 

Not sure why you are blaming Amazon when its also most overseas Companies. Oh and btw it has been perfectly legal for them not to pay NZ taxes...


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  Reply # 2027513 2-Jun-2018 15:15
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There is a perception among many posters that "the government" are to blame for Amazon choosing not to sell to Australia and that it'll be permanent.

 

I'm pointing out that Amazon aren't a paragon of virtue - they behave in a rational way and don't really care about what is fair. This is to be expected as companies don't really have moral compasses, they generally act in their own best interests. This can be seen everywhere, including New Zealand businesses (eg Fonterra, Auckland Airport, Air New Zealand, Telecom etc etc etc).

 

I think that all parties are acting as one would expect and it'll work itself out as there is far to much money to be made for Amazon to abandon Australia. New Zealand isn't all that much different although a smaller market.


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  Reply # 2027526 2-Jun-2018 16:26
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Handle9:

 

There is a perception among many posters that "the government" are to blame for Amazon choosing not to sell to Australia and that it'll be permanent.

 

I'm pointing out that Amazon aren't a paragon of virtue - they behave in a rational way and don't really care about what is fair. This is to be expected as companies don't really have moral compasses, they generally act in their own best interests. This can be seen everywhere, including New Zealand businesses (eg Fonterra, Auckland Airport, Air New Zealand, Telecom etc etc etc).

 

I think that all parties are acting as one would expect and it'll work itself out as there is far to much money to be made for Amazon to abandon Australia. New Zealand isn't all that much different although a smaller market.

 

 

Amazon have only in very recent years been making a profit.

 

You seem to suggest that they should have been paying GST when in fact they arent currently required to.

 

Not many NZers would pay tax either if they are not required to. In fact Accountants make huge fees advising their customers on ways of legally avoiding tax.


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  Reply # 2027527 2-Jun-2018 16:26
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oops double post


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  Reply # 2027558 2-Jun-2018 17:56
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MikeB4:

 

In the 2016-2017 fiscal year Amazon had revenue of $US177Billion, a bottom line profit of #US3.33Billion their total tax payment for that fiscal year was $US0.00. I won't even go into their record on staff wellbeing etc here that is a different saga.

 

 

The revenue figure is irrelevant, corporate tax liability is based on profit not revenue. The relevant figure here is the $3.33 billion. I haven't checked this number of looked at why they didn't pay tax, but there may (or may not) be good reasons for this - accumulated losses carried forward, tax incentives granted by the government etc. But that's immaterial. Whether they pay appropriate corporation tax is a matter for the US government, as that's who it would be owed to, and not the NZ government.

 

Corporate tax is also irrelevant to the main issue here - whether Amazon must collect consumption tax for the NZ and Aus governments. In the case of NZ that is theoretical as the tax isn't in yet, and they haven't actually refused to do anything. In the case of Australia, if they want to continue to operate there then they have to comply with Australian law on their Australian operations. What they seem to be doing is fulfilling orders from their .au.com website (which fully complies with Australian law and collects GST), and stopping aussie circumventing this by going to the .com website. Which I am struggling to see as being bad corporate behaviour. Inconvenient for customers perhaps, but neither illegal nor immoral for Amazon to do.

 

Neither, incidentally, would shutting up shop rather than complying with a law that they regard as more trouble than it's worth. If we go hard on GST then Amazon et al have a choice - either comply with the new law, or don't do business with NZ. They are both legitimate and bona fide choices, and there is nothing wrong with deciding either way. It's not really a moral decision, it's a business decision.


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  Reply # 2027607 2-Jun-2018 19:42
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Pumpedd:

You seem to suggest that they should have been paying GST when in fact they arent currently required to.




No not at all. What I am pointing out is that Amazon are the ones creating a “geoblock”. I also think it is very instructive to look at their behaviour when they try and paint this issue as something that they can not avoid. They can, they just don’t want to.

I’m also pointing out that they have a pretty poor record as a corporate citizen and that anything they say regarding tax should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

I’m a very happy Amazon customer. They are a well oiled machine, just don’t try and make them a martyr (I’m not saying you are but others are.)

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  Reply # 2027608 2-Jun-2018 19:44
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Pumpedd:

 

Handle9:

 

da5id:

 

gzt: Imo Amazon intends to geoblock in AU simply to drive traffic to the AU distribution center. It's not that smart imo.

 

Yeh, It still sucks. If the same product was available at its Australian store, I would say all well and good, but it isn't. 

 

Ultimately, it still prevents people from getting the goods they want. The global marketplace is suddenly less global and the whole reason this is goes back to the Govt charging tax on goods that aren't even sold in Australia - rather cheeky if you ask me.  The net result is a lot of pissed off people. 

 

 

The goods are sold to Australian consumers and delivered to be used in Australia. The GST is a consumption tax on locally consumed goods. Why do you think this is a bit cheeky? If online companies don't participate in the tax system then the burden falls to the rest of the economy (ie consumers and local companies) to fund the essential services of that economy. If a business derives economic benefit from an economy IMO it is entirely reasonable that they contribute to that society. 

 

It goes back to Amazon choosing not to participate in a market, although it will be temporary. They have a long history of behaving in a predatory way towards local communities, suppliers and their workforce. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/technology/writers-feel-an-amazon-hachette-spat.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3As%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A8%22%7D

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amir-barnea/great-deals-dont-justify-amazons-predatory-behaviour_a_23205519/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?_r=2

 

This isn't unique to NZ/Australia, Amazon have tried to avoid paying sales taxes in most municipalities and they are slowly being brought to a more normal level of participation in the economies in which they participate.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-09/amazon-s-sales-tax-fight-is-heating-up-as-states-crack-down

 

 

 

 

Not sure why you are blaming Amazon when its also most overseas Companies. Oh and btw it has been perfectly legal for them not to pay NZ taxes...

 

 

Correct/ Amazon doesnt pay NZ Income Tax as they are not an NZ company. The thread is GST


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  Reply # 2027611 2-Jun-2018 19:48
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Pumpedd:

 

Handle9:

 

There is a perception among many posters that "the government" are to blame for Amazon choosing not to sell to Australia and that it'll be permanent.

 

I'm pointing out that Amazon aren't a paragon of virtue - they behave in a rational way and don't really care about what is fair. This is to be expected as companies don't really have moral compasses, they generally act in their own best interests. This can be seen everywhere, including New Zealand businesses (eg Fonterra, Auckland Airport, Air New Zealand, Telecom etc etc etc).

 

I think that all parties are acting as one would expect and it'll work itself out as there is far to much money to be made for Amazon to abandon Australia. New Zealand isn't all that much different although a smaller market.

 

 

Amazon have only in very recent years been making a profit.

 

You seem to suggest that they should have been paying GST when in fact they arent currently required to.

 

Not many NZers would pay tax either if they are not required to. In fact Accountants make huge fees advising their customers on ways of legally avoiding tax.

 

 

IIRC Amazon and everyone else is required to collect (collect, not pay) GST. But as there has been no mechanism, its been left, aside for the current threshold. 

 

Now, its being brought up to date. No tax increase, no new tax, what has always been in play, has been brought up to date.


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  Reply # 2027630 2-Jun-2018 20:20
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tdgeek:

 

Pumpedd:

 

Handle9:

 

da5id:

 

gzt: Imo Amazon intends to geoblock in AU simply to drive traffic to the AU distribution center. It's not that smart imo.

 

Yeh, It still sucks. If the same product was available at its Australian store, I would say all well and good, but it isn't. 

 

Ultimately, it still prevents people from getting the goods they want. The global marketplace is suddenly less global and the whole reason this is goes back to the Govt charging tax on goods that aren't even sold in Australia - rather cheeky if you ask me.  The net result is a lot of pissed off people. 

 

 

The goods are sold to Australian consumers and delivered to be used in Australia. The GST is a consumption tax on locally consumed goods. Why do you think this is a bit cheeky? If online companies don't participate in the tax system then the burden falls to the rest of the economy (ie consumers and local companies) to fund the essential services of that economy. If a business derives economic benefit from an economy IMO it is entirely reasonable that they contribute to that society. 

 

It goes back to Amazon choosing not to participate in a market, although it will be temporary. They have a long history of behaving in a predatory way towards local communities, suppliers and their workforce. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/technology/writers-feel-an-amazon-hachette-spat.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3As%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A8%22%7D

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amir-barnea/great-deals-dont-justify-amazons-predatory-behaviour_a_23205519/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?_r=2

 

This isn't unique to NZ/Australia, Amazon have tried to avoid paying sales taxes in most municipalities and they are slowly being brought to a more normal level of participation in the economies in which they participate.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-09/amazon-s-sales-tax-fight-is-heating-up-as-states-crack-down

 

 

 

 

Not sure why you are blaming Amazon when its also most overseas Companies. Oh and btw it has been perfectly legal for them not to pay NZ taxes...

 

 

Correct/ Amazon doesnt pay NZ Income Tax as they are not an NZ company. The thread is GST

 

 

I didnt say "income tax"!!


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  Reply # 2027636 2-Jun-2018 20:35
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Pumpedd:

 

I didnt say "income tax"!!

 

 

Ok, I will wear that! :-)  You did say pay taxes, and this thread has been muddied by arguments about overseas companies not paying tax. Paying tax I took as paying income tax, where GST is a not paying its collecting. 


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  Reply # 2027695 2-Jun-2018 21:54
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tdgeek:

 

Pumpedd:

 

I didnt say "income tax"!!

 

 

Ok, I will wear that! :-)  You did say pay taxes, and this thread has been muddied by arguments about overseas companies not paying tax. Paying tax I took as paying income tax, where GST is a not paying its collecting. 

 

 

So who pays the GST(tax) to IRD?

 

Someone pays the tax!!!


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  Reply # 2027736 3-Jun-2018 09:24
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We, the end user, pay the tax. Amazon, as the seller, have to collect it and and forward it to the Government.

 

Amazon have set up in Australia, so presumably want Australians to use that site, rather than circumventing it by still buying from the USA etc.

 

Collecting GST and forwarding it to the Australian Government will incur a cost to them, that they can't really recover.

 

So why go to the trouble when they have set up in Australia, and can pay the GST locally?

 

Long term I assume more and more countries will require overseas online sellers to collect GST/VAT for them?

 

Amazon's responsibility is to get the best return for their shareholders. At times this will possibly annoy some of their customers.

 

 


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  Reply # 2027827 3-Jun-2018 15:12
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k1w1k1d:

 

We, the end user, pay the tax. Amazon, as the seller, have to collect it and and forward it to the Government.

 

Amazon have set up in Australia, so presumably want Australians to use that site, rather than circumventing it by still buying from the USA etc.

 

Collecting GST and forwarding it to the Australian Government will incur a cost to them, that they can't really recover.

 

So why go to the trouble when they have set up in Australia, and can pay the GST locally?

 

Long term I assume more and more countries will require overseas online sellers to collect GST/VAT for them?

 

Amazon's responsibility is to get the best return for their shareholders. At times this will possibly annoy some of their customers.

 

 

 

 

The problem in forcing them to use the Au store is lack of choice and high pricing compared to the US and UK Amazon stores.





Regards,

Old3eyes


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  Reply # 2027832 3-Jun-2018 15:53
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old3eyes:

 

k1w1k1d:

 

We, the end user, pay the tax. Amazon, as the seller, have to collect it and and forward it to the Government.

 

Amazon have set up in Australia, so presumably want Australians to use that site, rather than circumventing it by still buying from the USA etc.

 

Collecting GST and forwarding it to the Australian Government will incur a cost to them, that they can't really recover.

 

So why go to the trouble when they have set up in Australia, and can pay the GST locally?

 

Long term I assume more and more countries will require overseas online sellers to collect GST/VAT for them?

 

Amazon's responsibility is to get the best return for their shareholders. At times this will possibly annoy some of their customers.

 

 

 

 

The problem in forcing them to use the Au store is lack of choice and high pricing compared to the US and UK Amazon stores.

 

 

I agree, but Amazon can do what they wish to run their business. EBay and Alibaba have indicated they will collect GST, so the assumption is that Amazon feel its AUS business model is what is more suited for their business


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