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Journeyman
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  #2047084 1-Jul-2018 23:09
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I'd like to know what Brad thinks.


Aredwood
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  #2047105 2-Jul-2018 00:57

As above, imperial measurements in relation to plumbing fittings are based on really old standards. And are only regarded as nominal sizes. They don't match up exactly to the actual pipe sizes, and the metric sizes don't exactly calculate back to the imperial sizes either. So stating them by the metric size can cause problems when someone thinks that the nominal size equals the actual size.

Some plumbing systems even use both imperial and metric measurements to reference different parts of the same fitting. This is common with multilayer pipe systems that use crimp on fittings. For example, a 20mm X 1/2 fitting means 20mm pipe to 15mm thread. While a 15mm X 3/4 means 15mm pipe to 20mm thread. Which is a simple yet effective way to avoid mixing up the pipe and thread measurements.





 
 
 
 


eracode
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  #2047116 2-Jul-2018 01:57
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NZ hardware stores sell smaller sizes of sizes of nuts, bolts and washers in both metric (M6, M8 etc) and imperial (1/4, 3/8 etc).




Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.


Sidestep
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  #2047120 2-Jul-2018 05:57
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mattwnz:

 

I have been looking for some specific sized plumbing fittings on trademe for , and noticed that there are overseas businesses from the UK, selling their products solely with imperial sizes. eg 3/4 inch  diameter. I thought everything sold in the NZ market had to be in metric. Does anyone know if this is a legal requirement these days. To have things in imperial is confusing, and I suspect the sizes are slightly different as well. 

 

 

Any decent supplier should not only sell non-metric imperial fittings by their correct imperial sizing, they should also spec the thread eg NPT, BSPP or BSPT. Metric of course should have Metric sizing and 'M' thread or ISO standard.

 

I mess around with hydraulic and pneumatic systems that often have one or the other, or a mishmash of all of these.

 

On older machinery some - such as 1/2" NPT & BSPT are so similar it's quite easy to screw one into the other, the let down being that BSPT uses the old 55 degree Whitworth Thread Form, NPT a 60 degree one... meaning the taper will never seal, and at 3,000 psi a rainbow hued hydraulic fluid mist forms around that joint.

Confusingly British Gas, British Pipe Parallel or British Standard Pipe, Parallel (BSP BSPP BSPG or BSPF) is metricised in ISO standard as 'G' - while British Standard Pipe - Taper (BSPT) is 'R' 'Rc' etc and these are used (with imperial threads-per-inch count and 55 degrees) by countries which are otherwise completely on the metric system AND the US & Canada which are also increasingly using metric standards (eg for automobiles).

 

And let's say you pop into your local RD1 for some Hansen Fittings.. you'll find them in bins clearly marked by their metric sizing 15mm, 20mm, 25mm etc..
Except the sizing and thread form is actually imperial and BSP and the pipe they're designed to fit into is also only nominally metric. A farmer friend of mine somehow bought a huge amount of actual metric alkathene pipe on trademe, only to find none of his fittings would work.

Politicians and their rules should be kept far away from engineering specs, lest they make things even more confusing.


Bung
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  #2047121 2-Jul-2018 05:57
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eracode: NZ hardware stores sell smaller sizes of sizes of nuts, bolts and washers in both metric (M6, M8 etc) and imperial (1/4, 3/8 etc).


Bunnings changed the brand of their small packs and now there's a limited range of metric and it's mainly stainless steel.

Aredwood
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  #2047184 2-Jul-2018 08:20

Sidestep:

mattwnz:


I have been looking for some specific sized plumbing fittings on trademe for , and noticed that there are overseas businesses from the UK, selling their products solely with imperial sizes. eg 3/4 inch  diameter. I thought everything sold in the NZ market had to be in metric. Does anyone know if this is a legal requirement these days. To have things in imperial is confusing, and I suspect the sizes are slightly different as well. 



Any decent supplier should not only sell non-metric imperial fittings by their correct imperial sizing, they should also spec the thread eg NPT, BSPP or BSPT. Metric of course should have Metric sizing and 'M' thread or ISO standard.


I mess around with hydraulic and pneumatic systems that often have one or the other, or a mishmash of all of these.


On older machinery some - such as 1/2" NPT & BSPT are so similar it's quite easy to screw one into the other, the let down being that BSPT uses the old 55 degree Whitworth Thread Form, NPT a 60 degree one... meaning the taper will never seal, and at 3,000 psi a rainbow hued hydraulic fluid mist forms around that joint.

Confusingly British Gas, British Pipe Parallel or British Standard Pipe, Parallel (BSP BSPP BSPG or BSPF) is metricised in ISO standard as 'G' - while British Standard Pipe - Taper (BSPT) is 'R' 'Rc' etc and these are used (with imperial threads-per-inch count and 55 degrees) by countries which are otherwise completely on the metric system AND the US & Canada which are also increasingly using metric standards (eg for automobiles).


And let's say you pop into your local RD1 for some Hansen Fittings.. you'll find them in bins clearly marked by their metric sizing 15mm, 20mm, 25mm etc..
Except the sizing and thread form is actually imperial and BSP and the pipe they're designed to fit into is also only nominally metric. A farmer friend of mine somehow bought a huge amount of actual metric alkathene pipe on trademe, only to find none of his fittings would work.

Politicians and their rules should be kept far away from engineering specs, lest they make things even more confusing.



Please don't change the pipe thread standards. As BSP is used by the entire world except for the USA (and I guess Canada as well). There are already enough plumbing thread standards. We definitely don't want any more.

As for alkathene pipe, there are lots of different versions of it. Due to different companies coming and going over the years. So no surprises that your farmer friend has to also get new fittings to use the new pipe.





floydbloke
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  #2047197 2-Jul-2018 08:45
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richms:

 

JimmyH:

 

As long as the product is clearly, and not deceptively, marked with what it is then I don't see what the problem could be. Personally, I have two sets of spanners and sockets etc, one in metric and one in imperial. I didn't buy the imperial ones in error - I got them deliberately as sometimes I have old or imported stuff to work on and need something that fits exactly. I'm not sure what could be gained by a law saying a retailer can't advertise or sell a 1/4" socket or nut, or a two-pound bag of sugar. As long as the measurements are honest and the labelling is clear.

 

 

You can't sell a 2 pound bag of sugar tho, it would have be a 0.91 kg bag of sugar on it somewhere, assuming you are using traditional US type pounds, as there are historically many pounds and none of them have any more or less legal standing here which is why the change to metric deleted any reference to the old measurements.

 

 

Yet pubs can sell you a 'pint' of beer in this country that can be anywhere from 330ml to to 586ml (although it's typically 440 or thereabouts), and then there's  the 'scoop' of chips from the local takeaway.





= > ÷

 

 


 
 
 
 


ResponseMediaNZ
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  #2047200 2-Jul-2018 08:59
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floydbloke:

 

richms:

 

JimmyH:

 

As long as the product is clearly, and not deceptively, marked with what it is then I don't see what the problem could be. Personally, I have two sets of spanners and sockets etc, one in metric and one in imperial. I didn't buy the imperial ones in error - I got them deliberately as sometimes I have old or imported stuff to work on and need something that fits exactly. I'm not sure what could be gained by a law saying a retailer can't advertise or sell a 1/4" socket or nut, or a two-pound bag of sugar. As long as the measurements are honest and the labelling is clear.

 

 

You can't sell a 2 pound bag of sugar tho, it would have be a 0.91 kg bag of sugar on it somewhere, assuming you are using traditional US type pounds, as there are historically many pounds and none of them have any more or less legal standing here which is why the change to metric deleted any reference to the old measurements.

 

 

Yet pubs can sell you a 'pint' of beer in this country that can be anywhere from 330ml to to 586ml (although it's typically 440 or thereabouts), and then there's  the 'scoop' of chips from the local takeaway.

 

 

The "scoop" of chips size needs its own thread!!! That size is harder to work out than imperial and metric


jpoc
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  #2047230 2-Jul-2018 09:41
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<sarcasm alert - because there is always somebody>

 

All this Imperial stuff is terrible. I asked that bloke in PB Tech how on earth I could understand his three and a half in disk drives.

 

I mean, how many bytes can you fit into three and a half inches?

 

Then at the tyre shop I had to buy 195 mm wide tyres for seventeen inch wheels. How does that work? (The answer was that as long as the wheels were about six and a half inches wide, all was good.)

 

Then there is the plywood. Why did they ban the good old eight by four sheets and insist that I now have to get 2400 * 1200 mm sizes? (I measured them and they are really more like 2440 * 1220.)

 

Of course, two by two timber is not actually two inches by two inches, it started out that way before being planed smooth but we still know it as two by two or 48mm * 48mm in Germany.

 

The thing about all of this stuff is that the sizes are descriptions not actual measurements that you would expect to verify with a ruler and, like the plywood, it does not matter whether a plumbing fitment is described as some friendly imperial fraction or as an weird number of mm, it is the same.

 

At least you can still buy a 65" TV to watch England lose at the football.

 

Come to that, I just checked on mediamarkt.de and I am happy to report that my German friends can still buy a 65 inch TV to watch their team lose at the football too.

 

You should have seen the fuss over there when some dumb pollies tried to make them buy TVs in mm sizes only.

 

The important thing is to understand when a size is a description and not an exact measurement.

 

 


sleemanj
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  #2047312 2-Jul-2018 11:04
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Hammerer:

 

The Weights and Measures Act 1987 has specific exceptions which would probably cover the example you gave of an overseas trader selling goods on Trade Me which will then be imported.

 

 

 

 

I have highlighted some pertinent words in your quotation and indented for clarity

 

 

 

Hammerer:

 

 

11 Exceptions to obligation to use metric weights and measures in advertising goods for sale

 

Nothing in section 10 applies to the use by any person of any unit of a weight or measure which is not a unit of a weight or measure of the metric system on any goods displayed or exposed for sale by retail or on the package of any such goods or on both if

 

(a) that unit is additional to a unit of a weight or measure of the metric system and that unit and the figures in which that unit and the numerical value of that unit are marked are no larger than those of that metric weight or measure; and

 

(b) the goods—

 

(i) have been imported into New Zealand; or

 

(ii) are part of a line of goods intended for sale by retail both in New Zealand and another country or were, when marked with the unit of a weight or measure of a system which is not the metric system, intended for sale by retail in another country; and

 

(c) in the case of the goods referred to in paragraph (b)(ii), those goods were required, by the law of that other country or pursuant to the terms of any contract relating to the import of those goods into that other country, to be marked with that non-metric unit.

 

 

 

 

 

Your quotation appears to state that if you have a non-metric measure, there must also be a metric measure, regardless of why it qualifies to allow the non-metric (b sub clauses) in the first place.

 

That aside, the sellers being referred to are not in NZ, they are not bound by NZ law, they don't have to abide by the W&MA here any more than they do the CGA, you are privately importing goods from overseas when you buy from these sellers.

 

 





---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...


Dairyxox
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  #2047324 2-Jul-2018 11:20
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Tell me about it, I've got this supplier from Korea that keeps trying to sell me computer screens that are measured in inches (damn you Samsung).

 

Even my iPhone screen is specified in inches just like Brad.


Taubin
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  #2047350 2-Jul-2018 11:37
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As an American living in NZ, this entire thread has me very amused.


richms
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  #2047770 2-Jul-2018 18:31
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sleemanj:

 

Your quotation appears to state that if you have a non-metric measure, there must also be a metric measure, regardless of why it qualifies to allow the non-metric (b sub clauses) in the first place.

 

That aside, the sellers being referred to are not in NZ, they are not bound by NZ law, they don't have to abide by the W&MA here any more than they do the CGA, you are privately importing goods from overseas when you buy from these sellers.

 

 

It is not being used as a measure in these cases. If you were to order some pipe and they said that is 12 feet at $6 a foot, it would be illegal. If it was a "12 foot" length of it as a trade name for the piece of pipe, and they had a fixed price for it, then its not measuring it so is fine, those units cannot be used for measure in NZ, they have no legal standing as a measurement. Just like subway and a footlong and 6 inch.

 

 





Richard rich.ms

sleemanj
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  #2047781 2-Jul-2018 18:49
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Funnily enough, I did a quick search to see how many "offenders" there were (for things that are not to my knowledge merely nominal), the first ones I looked at seemed to include metric measurements in the details at least (not in the title often though) even international ones, the first one I came across that didn't... a local seller of fence panels advertising the overall dimensions only in feet and then mixing in metric for the dimensions of the steel they build the things out of, go figure, they make the panels in NZ!

 

And the next "offender" I found... another local outfit selling dog runs (a large open top steel cage), dimensions all in feet only.

 

I suppose that both of these could be argued as "not being a measure", you're not necessarily buying "10ft of dog run", but a "10ft dog run", but you got to say it's pretty weird to have locally manufactured and sold things have the dimensions only specified in feet.

 

 





---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...


Sidestep
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  #2047962 3-Jul-2018 02:30
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sleemanj:

 

Funnily enough, I did a quick search to see how many "offenders" there were 

 

 

The biggest offender would be every aircraft in the country, measuring things in feet, inches of mercury and knots..


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