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Fred99
11128 posts

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  #2048015 3-Jul-2018 08:38
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debo:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

That's not "a giggle". Seems like pointless and rather thoughtless trolling to me.  

 

A hospital is certainly a place where single use plastics are justified, and would be disposed of responsibly.

 

 

So burning plastic is now responsible? and you call me thoughtless.

 

 

Yes it's burned - responsibly and thoughtfully.


Geektastic
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  #2048049 3-Jul-2018 09:39
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How exactly does plastic get from landfill to the ocean anyway?





 
 
 
 


MikeAqua

6058 posts

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  #2048054 3-Jul-2018 09:46
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A few weeks ago I brought a nasal spray for hayfever, that I haven't bought in a while.  Noticed two things. 

 

1) The small cover has changed from a 5mm x 30mm plastic tube to piece of plastic the size of match box

 

2) The cardboard box is gone and replaced with a plastic package 4 or 5 times the size of the product.  The package mostly comprises an empty cavity. 

 

There was no issue with the old packaging, the new package seems designed primarily to occupy shelf space.  Massive amount (relative to product) of completely unnecessary plastic.





Mike


marej
186 posts

Master Geek


  #2048066 3-Jul-2018 09:49

MikeAqua:

 

A few weeks ago I brought a nasal spray for hayfever, that I haven't bought in a while.  Noticed two things. 

 

1) The small cover has changed from a 5mm x 30mm plastic tube to piece of plastic the size of match box

 

2) The cardboard box is gone and replaced with a plastic package 4 or 5 times the size of the product.  The package mostly comprises an empty cavity. 

 

There was no issue with the old packaging, the new package seems designed primarily to occupy shelf space.  Massive amount (relative to product) of completely unnecessary plastic.

 

 

 

 

and this is the stuff that should be addressed but goes unnoticed because everyone is busy attacking the multi-use plastic supermarket bags which won't have any effect on our oceans.


MikeB4
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  #2048080 3-Jul-2018 10:09
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Recently I went into Mitre 10 for a tool which is made almost entirely of metal, this tool was packaged in that incredibly hard plastic that requires a laser cutter to get into it, why? to protect it? from what a meteorite strike? 


MikeAqua

6058 posts

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  #2048099 3-Jul-2018 10:10
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marej:

 

and this is the stuff that should be addressed but goes unnoticed because everyone is busy attacking the multi-use plastic supermarket bags which won't have any effect on our oceans.

 

 

I'm not sure supermarket bags don't have an effect on the ocean.  You do see them (and bits of them) out on the water. 





Mike


Lastman
286 posts

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  #2048100 3-Jul-2018 10:10
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marej:

MikeAqua:


A few weeks ago I brought a nasal spray for hayfever, that I haven't bought in a while.  Noticed two things. 


1) The small cover has changed from a 5mm x 30mm plastic tube to piece of plastic the size of match box


2) The cardboard box is gone and replaced with a plastic package 4 or 5 times the size of the product.  The package mostly comprises an empty cavity. 


There was no issue with the old packaging, the new package seems designed primarily to occupy shelf space.  Massive amount (relative to product) of completely unnecessary plastic.



 


and this is the stuff that should be addressed but goes unnoticed because everyone is busy attacking the multi-use plastic supermarket bags which won't have any effect on our oceans.



https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jun/03/whale-dies-from-eating-more-than-80-plastic-bags

 
 
 
 


Rikkitic
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  #2048114 3-Jul-2018 10:20
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OK, we all agree that plastic is bad and for most current uses, unnecessary, but what do we do about it? I try to be aware  of it in products I buy, but it is almost impossible to avoid. A  consumer boycott might help get the message across to manufacturers, but there are almost no alternative choices. Everything is wrapped in bloody plastic! I think the producers and commercial users of this crap need to be held responsible, and the government needs to do the holding. For years producers have got away with burdening the environment with an enormous problem, but they have been allowed to do this and they have effectively been subsidised because they have not had to pay the real costs of this packaging, which is now threatening the planet. There is a major disconnect here. At the least, we should start naming and shaming every product that comes with unnecessary plastic packaging. The way things are at the moment, it is difficult if not impossible to avoid all plastic packaging, but at least we can make it clear to the irresponsible companies pushing this stuff that it isn't appreciated and consumers no longer 'demand' it.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


MikeB4
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  #2048134 3-Jul-2018 10:34
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I think back a few years and cure for plastic is there plain and clear in the annuls of history. I never had to buy tools from Raynor and Woodward hardware that was wrapped in titanium strength plastic. The Four square store and New World would happily pack the groceries in paper bags made from renewable resources and recyclable. The Milk came in multi use bottles and so did our beer, soft drink etc etc etc. The Butcher happily wrapped the meat in paper made from renewable resources and recyclable. It is not rocket science and it is very logical to change the way we are doing things.


Wheelbarrow01
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  #2048141 3-Jul-2018 10:50
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I have just come back from a 10 day holiday to Hawaii and I made a couple of observations. The first was that all the shops and supermarkets on Maui offer free paper grocery bags with cardboard handles. I didn't see a single plastic bag the entire time I was on that island. I also very quickly noticed that there was no plastic littering the beaches anywhere - and after I first noticed it, I was really looking for it after that. No bottle tops, no cigarette butts, no chip packets - nothing but pristine beaches, coastlines, sidewalks and village centres. The bins lining the sidewalks appeared to be emptied regularly by guys driving electric golf cart type machines and there were separate bins for plastic bottles etc. Even on the road to Hana, with its hundreds of stopping places which are invaded by thousands of tourists every day, there seemed to be no rubbish left anywhere.

 

In Honolulu, the ABC stores would sell you a plastic bag, but it was the stronger, thicker type commonly used in fashion stores that can be reused. Again, there were plenty of workmen emptying bins regularly and despite the sheer volume of people about the place, it was still generally a very clean place to be. At Pearl Harbor, I saw some very sturdy looking bins constructed from plastic, with signs on them indicating that the bins themselves had been made out of 1067 recycled milk bottles. And on a chopper flight over most of Oahu, I saw several very large solar and wind farms, and most resorts had their roofs completely covered in solar panels. They seem to be doing something right over there...

 

I was pretty astounded by all this to be honest. I have a holiday home in Otematata on the shores of Lake Benmore on the Otago/Canterbury border. It's not densely populated by any stretch of the imagination, yet I always find plastic litter at many of the lakeside beaches I frequent, along with the obligatory glass beer bottles and bottle caps (both plastic and metal). Quite often there is toilet paper 'evidence' that people have been there. It's pretty disgusting really. I can't work out whether people in NZ (including visitors) are just lazy slobs who don't care about the environment, or whether they just have better cleaners in Hawaii. Whilst the latter may be true in the cities such as Honolulu, I certainly don't believe they send their cleaners out to the isolated tourism spots like the road to Hana or Oahu's north coast to trek off the road and clean up after people every day.

 

Every time my friends and I go out boating at Lake Benmore or Brooklands Lagoon near Christchurch, we always collect everyone else's rubbish, empty beer bottles and bottle caps to bring home with our own. It's not hard and I really don't understand why nobody else seems willing to do the same.

 

I have come back to New Zealand to all the talk and debate this week over single use plastic bags, of bans that aren't really bans but rather just banning FREE plastic bags, and I question why nobody here is talking about paper bags at all. They clearly work in other countries so why not here? Surely a paper bag can be made for 10c or even 20c each. I would even pay for them if they were an option, but nobody is offering.....


Fred99
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  #2048147 3-Jul-2018 10:55
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According to the data I posted earlier in this thread, a paper bag has the same environmental footprint as 43 single use plastic bags (this presumably not taking into account the difficult to quantify harm from failing to dispose of them correctly):

 

They compare how many times you’d have to reuse a given material as a substitute to make it worthwhile to replace a single-use standard plastic bag (i.e. how many times would you have to reuse to make it environmentally equal?).

 

- Polypropylene (PP) – those thicker woven bags that are common you’d have to use 5 times for CO2, or 45 times if you include all environmental factors;

 

- Paper – tends to be similar from CO2 perspective, but would use 43 times to be even on all environmental factors;

 

- Organic cotton bag – 149 times for CO2; 20,000 times for all environmental factors;

 

- Conventional cotton bag – 52 times for CO2; 7100 times for all environmental factors.


marej
186 posts

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  #2048148 3-Jul-2018 10:58

The whale incident was in Asia - so banning plastic bags in NZ supermarkets wont make a scrap of difference.  Plastic bags are not the only plastic found in the ocean either.  This is a littering problem and thats what needs to be addressed. Most people dont dump plastic bags or other plastic in the ocean.  It it is to be believed that banning supermarket plastic bags is going to help the oceans, then we should identify all types of plastic found in the ocean and ban all of that type of plastic - credibility.


MikeB4
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  #2048150 3-Jul-2018 11:01
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marej:

 

The whale incident was in Asia - so banning plastic bags in NZ supermarkets wont make a scrap of difference.  Plastic bags are not the only plastic found in the ocean either.  This is a littering problem and thats what needs to be addressed. Most people dont dump plastic bags or other plastic in the ocean.  It it is to be believed that banning supermarket plastic bags is going to help the oceans, then we should identify all types of plastic found in the ocean and ban all of that type of plastic - credibility.

 

 

That is incorrect plastics can circumnavigate the globe so our plastic affect everyone else. Of course we all could do nothing and wait for the other guy to start but by then we will all be well and truly screwed.


MikeAqua

6058 posts

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  #2048168 3-Jul-2018 11:12
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Fred99:

 

According to the data I posted earlier in this thread, a paper bag has the same environmental footprint as 43 single use plastic bags (this presumably not taking into account the difficult to quantify harm from failing to dispose of them correctly):

 

They compare how many times you’d have to reuse a given material as a substitute to make it worthwhile to replace a single-use standard plastic bag (i.e. how many times would you have to reuse to make it environmentally equal?).

 

- Polypropylene (PP) – those thicker woven bags that are common you’d have to use 5 times for CO2, or 45 times if you include all environmental factors;

 

- Paper – tends to be similar from CO2 perspective, but would use 43 times to be even on all environmental factors;

 

- Organic cotton bag – 149 times for CO2; 20,000 times for all environmental factors;

 

- Conventional cotton bag – 52 times for CO2; 7100 times for all environmental factors.

 

 

Interesting.  So polypro bags work.  They seem to last a couple of years until the zip fails and another couple after that.

 

One observation is that not all environmental issues are equal and some are short lived.  Plastic is long lived.

 

Interesting to note that organic cotton is worse in terms of environmental impacts - if I'm interpreting correctly.

 

 





Mike


MikeAqua

6058 posts

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  #2048170 3-Jul-2018 11:14
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MikeB4:

 

That is incorrect plastics can circumnavigate the globe so our plastic affect everyone else. Of course we all could do nothing and wait for the other guy to start but by then we will all be well and truly screwed.

 

 

In this instance NZ has a pronounced effect due to our proximity to a couple of ocean gyres that concentrate plastic.

 

Incidentally one organisation trying to take pragmatic action (rather than talking about it) is The Plastic Bank





Mike


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