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Topic # 239880 9-Aug-2018 07:48
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Hey all,

 

 

 

I have been in my current place of work for almost 2 years now, as per my contract I should have had a PR at 3 and 6 then recocurring every 12 months there after. When I  first started the structure and management of my team was shocking, I have only had my first 1:1 this week where I brought it up. They said to give them 2 weeks to get my stats together then outline a 6 month plan to then be considered for a PR.

 

I didn't exactly go and ask them at 3 or 6 months for this PR or 12 due to how poorly everything was run and I am not that sort of person to go asking for more money loudly.

Now I am at a point where I'd rather work in a supermarket packing bags for half the money than working here unless they give me a decent reason to stay. What I am getting at is do I have any ammo from my 3 missed PR's or is that my own dumb fault for not asking in writing etc... Are they obliged to make sure it happens even if they decline by default?

 

 

 

Cheers





 


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  Reply # 2070377 9-Aug-2018 07:58
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What does your employment contract say?




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  Reply # 2070380 9-Aug-2018 08:01
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MurrayM:

 

What does your employment contract say?

 

 

"There WILL be a review after three and six months to assess your performance and salary. There after your performance and salary will be reviewed annually."

 

 

 

Firstly in that I read it as they are saying they will make sure this happens and it is their obligation rather than stating it is for me to request.

Cheers





 


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  Reply # 2070388 9-Aug-2018 08:43
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Hey, I do think you have the ammo.

 

But usually pay review should be about your value to the company and about them understanding what they need to do to keep you around.

 

If I were you, I would got to the meeting prepared with my own ammo. Basically be prepared to make your case and explain to them why they should pay you more. Bring up example of where you've been doing a great job (saving the company some money, went the extra mile, etc..). You can also bring up the current market rate if you think you are being paid below.

 

What I am saying is that asking for more money "because I really really need it" or "because you said you would give me more" rarely works and it seem company tend to only pay you as much as they have to pay you to keep you around and engaged.

 

Hope that helps


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  Reply # 2070391 9-Aug-2018 08:46
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Coil:

 

MurrayM:

 

What does your employment contract say?

 

 

"There WILL be a review after three and six months to assess your performance and salary. There after your performance and salary will be reviewed annually."

 

 

 

Firstly in that I read it as they are saying they will make sure this happens and it is their obligation rather than stating it is for me to request.

Cheers

 

 

I don't think it's the employee's responsibility to chase up and arrange pay reviews - your contract clearly states that the reviews will happen at the prescribed intervals. The fact that they have not happened is not of your making. If it were me, I'd probably draft a letter of expectation to them, pointing out that they have failed to fulfil their obligations as set out in the contract that presumably they wrote, and I would demand that the skipped pay reviews take place now, retrospectively, with pay increases applied and back-paid, prior to the pay review for the current period taking place.

 

Ideally you want to make sure that any pay rises you missed out on in the past are retrospectively applied before they consider the current review. For example, a payrise now, from $60k to $65k seems good on the surface, but not if you have missed out on 3 x $2500 incremental increases in the meantime. Had they all taken place as they should, the current rise would see you going from $67.5k to $72.5k.

 

You want those incremental raises applied first (based on performance in those periods), and then they should consider your performance for the current period and decide if a further raise is warranted based on current performance.

 

That's my take on it anyway. Interested to see what others think.


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  Reply # 2070394 9-Aug-2018 08:56
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Always remember this is a two way street. Per default the company will take anything it gets. i.e. if you don't care about what you earn they will gladly take it and not even say thank you. Nothing personal just the way the cookie crumbles. If you know you're doing a sub-optimal job then I wouldn't go ask for money but if you're doing OK. Just demand. What's the worst that cna happen? Will they fire you? They can't and even if they do they need to pay up.

 

 

I actually rate any employees I have/had highly if they do talk about money and if they stand in for what they want provided it's reasonable. It shows that you actually care and are responsible also for your needs.

 

 

I basically argued the fact that I don't want more money but i need more money because living costs are higher, I have a new kid or just bought a house. It'd not me asking just for the sake of it. And if they say no or don't adjust for inflation I bluntly ask why I am getting a pay cut and where I can improve so it doesn't happen again (usually I asked a few minutes before if they were happy with my performance, which is always a yes and I then ask why there is that discrepancy between good delivery and pay cut). Usually it's thoughtlessness on a manager side but sometimes you actually find out something (often it may be something you don't want to hear). In my opinion there's only a win:win from such a frank discussion. If you can't have that you need to look at what is going on anyway.

 

 

If it is obvious that teh company is not doing that flash don't ask for a raise! But say you're explicitly not talking about money because its obvious there's none to go around. But make it clear that you WILL once the ruble is rolling again and that you then expect to be treated as fairly.

 

 

Also remember that every person has different views on what a "lot" of money is. Again nothing personal but you need to be clear, direc and inoffensive. That will get you to your goal or to good answers that let you make clear decisions. Oh and for goodness sake plan your yearly interviews. Have a list of what YOU want to talk about. It is YOUR meeting not the companies. Nobody is interested or cares for your career but YOU. A company will never tell you to go on a course or what chances for advancements there are. That is 100% your duty. If you'd come to me asking what courses I will send you on next year I'd say "None" and put a comment in your file. If you had said you demand to go on course 1,2 & 3. I'd be impressed and maybe say " We can do 1 & 2 but 3 will need to be next Financial Year".

 

 

So like your CV the 1:1 meeting is 101% your doing and for you to run. You set your KPIs and OK them with your manager and maybe add his if they are achievable. If you "flunk" your 1:1 look in the mirror and don't rant at the company (you can still be disappointed though).

 

 

The sentence "Good things will come to those that work hard and are diligent" is utter bull. Good things will come to those that ask and show initiative and don't back down (caveat: but not those that are wildly unreasonable).

 

 

Sorry, little rant because I hate people blaming companies for their lack of career and money.

 

 




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  Reply # 2070401 9-Aug-2018 09:07
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Wheelbarrow01:

 

Coil:

 

MurrayM:

 

What does your employment contract say?

 

 

"There WILL be a review after three and six months to assess your performance and salary. There after your performance and salary will be reviewed annually."

 

 

 

Firstly in that I read it as they are saying they will make sure this happens and it is their obligation rather than stating it is for me to request.

Cheers

 

 

I don't think it's the employee's responsibility to chase up and arrange pay reviews - your contract clearly states that the reviews will happen at the prescribed intervals. The fact that they have not happened is not of your making. If it were me, I'd probably draft a letter of expectation to them, pointing out that they have failed to fulfil their obligations as set out in the contract that presumably they wrote, and I would demand that the skipped pay reviews take place now, retrospectively, with pay increases applied and back-paid, prior to the pay review for the current period taking place.

 

Ideally you want to make sure that any pay rises you missed out on in the past are retrospectively applied before they consider the current review. For example, a payrise now, from $60k to $65k seems good on the surface, but not if you have missed out on 3 x $2500 incremental increases in the meantime. Had they all taken place as they should, the current rise would see you going from $67.5k to $72.5k.

 

You want those incremental raises applied first (based on performance in those periods), and then they should consider your performance for the current period and decide if a further raise is warranted based on current performance.

 

That's my take on it anyway. Interested to see what others think.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate that response, I will be thinking out my next steps carefully. I emailed the HR lady to meet up with her and let her know of my expectations and thoughts.

At the same time in my team we have been short staffed at times and also had varying workloads with inaccurate KPI's that were never established correctly so I have the paper stats stacked against me. At the same time i have put up with undue stress and workloads that have varied. My stats will unfairly reflect my commitment to the company and I am afraid this is going to be the downfall of the situation. 

They have not given me a smooth ride is what I am saying and for me to still be here with all the crap we have put up with really makes me question my own sanity.

Cheers

 

 





 




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  Reply # 2070403 9-Aug-2018 09:12
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olivernz: Always remember this is a two way street. Per default the company will take anything it gets. i.e. if you don't care about what you earn they will gladly take it and not even say thank you. Nothing personal just the way the cookie crumbles. If you know you're doing a sub-optimal job then I wouldn't go ask for money but if you're doing OK. Just demand. What's the worst that cna happen? Will they fire you? They can't and even if they do they need to pay up. I actually rate any employees I have/had highly if they do talk about money and if they stand in for what they want provided it's reasonable. It shows that you actually care and are responsible also for your needs. I basically argued the fact that I don't want more money but i need more money because living costs are higher, I have a new kid or just bought a house. It'd not me asking just for the sake of it. And if they say no or don't adjust for inflation I bluntly ask why I am getting a pay cut and where I can improve so it doesn't happen again (usually I asked a few minutes before if they were happy with my performance, which is always a yes and I then ask why there is that discrepancy between good delivery and pay cut). Usually it's thoughtlessness on a manager side but sometimes you actually find out something (often it may be something you don't want to hear). In my opinion there's only a win:win from such a frank discussion. If you can't have that you need to look at what is going on anyway. If it is obvious that teh company is not doing that flash don't ask for a raise! But say you're explicitly not talking about money because its obvious there's none to go around. But make it clear that you WILL once the ruble is rolling again and that you then expect to be treated as fairly. Also remember that every person has different views on what a "lot" of money is. Again nothing personal but you need to be clear, direc and inoffensive. That will get you to your goal or to good answers that let you make clear decisions. Oh and for goodness sake plan your yearly interviews. Have a list of what YOU want to talk about. It is YOUR meeting not the companies. Nobody is interested or cares for your career but YOU. A company will never tell you to go on a course or what chances for advancements there are. That is 100% your duty. If you'd come to me asking what courses I will send you on next year I'd say "None" and put a comment in your file. If you had said you demand to go on course 1,2 & 3. I'd be impressed and maybe say " We can do 1 & 2 but 3 will need to be next Financial Year". So like your CV the 1:1 meeting is 101% your doing and for you to run. You set your KPIs and OK them with your manager and maybe add his if they are achievable. If you "flunk" your 1:1 look in the mirror and don't rant at the company (you can still be disappointed though). The sentence "Good things will come to those that work hard and are diligent" is utter bull. Good things will come to those that ask and show initiative and don't back down (caveat: but not those that are wildly unreasonable). Sorry, little rant because I hate people blaming companies for their lack of career and money.

 

 

 

Thanks for the response, some comments in there that rang true, The company did report a loss last year and also removed all forms of staff bonus. So the bonus for the first full year I worked was written off half way into it... I should have been more persistent with meetings and so fourth but the culture here and how rushed and informal everything was just made you feel that you couldn't. 





 


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  Reply # 2070411 9-Aug-2018 09:22
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You could argue for a pay rise now - not in 6 months and then argue that some of the pay rise should be backdated.





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  Reply # 2070451 9-Aug-2018 09:42
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A review does not automatically assume an INCREASE. If the company is not performing, regardless of whether you have performed well, there is less chance of an increase.

 

I believe that you should be prepared to demonstrate the value you have added to the role/company since your arrival. 

 

If you are refused a pay increase, I would start with "What targets do I need to meet to be eligible for a PI". This gives you a target and sets an expectation.

 

I disagree with comments (not by the OP) that a company should pay you more because you chose to have children, or had an increase in your costs. 

 

 


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  Reply # 2070487 9-Aug-2018 10:19
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Agree that a review is just a review. Pay increases are often taken as standard practice. A company may be making money, but cutting costs to stay viable, wages are a cost. If there are factors not of your doing that are causing low or no pay increase (hence a real world decrease), then you need to be looking elsewhere. The employer may not care, or may be struggling, both are not ideal obviously. If they were struggling and do care, you would know that and be aware of future prospects.


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  Reply # 2070488 9-Aug-2018 10:19
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networkn:

 

A review does not automatically assume an INCREASE.

 

 

If you don't at least get a cost of living increase, then pay is actually going backward.  And if you are in Auckland, a realistic cost of living increase will actually be higher than the national CPI.





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  Reply # 2070490 9-Aug-2018 10:26
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MikeAqua:

 

networkn:

 

A review does not automatically assume an INCREASE.

 

 

If you don't at least get a cost of living increase, then pay is actually going backward.  And if you are in Auckland, a realistic cost of living increase will actually be higher than the national CPI.

 

 

But its a review, not a pay increase meeting. If wages go up, but the employer cannot pass that on in a competitive market, then the employer is the one getting a decrease. One day there will be no employer. Automation can help the employer reduce costs per sale, and the employee as more skills are required, but off course we reduce employees, which is another story




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  Reply # 2070496 9-Aug-2018 10:41
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MikeAqua:

 

networkn:

 

A review does not automatically assume an INCREASE.

 

 

If you don't at least get a cost of living increase, then pay is actually going backward.  And if you are in Auckland, a realistic cost of living increase will actually be higher than the national CPI.

 

 

My cost of living has gone up living in AKL, gas is more expensive, I am paying a little bit more rent and some food has also gone up in price..





 


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  Reply # 2070539 9-Aug-2018 10:47
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Coil:

 

 

 

My cost of living has gone up living in AKL, gas is more expensive, I am paying a little bit more rent and some food has also gone up in price..

 

 

At the risk of sounding a little cold, how is this your employers issue? Your pay should be based on your performance and output within the company. IE your value. If you are providing additional value then if the company is in a position to provide it, you should in theory get a payrise.

 

 


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  Reply # 2070545 9-Aug-2018 10:52
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MikeAqua:

 

You could argue for a pay rise now - not in 6 months and then argue that some of the pay rise should be backdated.

 

 

This.

 

It's all about fairness and good faith, and the employer is not quite living up to their side of the bargain to date so advantage you on delivering good faith.

 

Now the employer might be able to say that the business isn't profitable, or your role isn't working as hoped yada yada as justification for having a review that doesn't lead to a rise. I doubt there's anything in the contract that says there's anything more than a review.

 

But you should say you've been patient, done a good job, improved your expertise and contributed to improvement in in the way your part of the business runs and outcomes blah blah blah so in fairness qualify for a pay rise, and that's before you even start on cost of living increases.

 

So be nice and reasoned and calm. If that doesn't work then have a quiet look around and see if there are better opportunities elsewhere. 

 

Of course as an institutionalised contractor who hasn't had a proper job in 30 years it's easy for me to say this. As a consequence, though, I've worked in countless businesses and believe me there's more to happy, fulfilled employment than pay, even if it is a very good start. 


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