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Batman
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  #2072889 13-Aug-2018 18:56
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Handle9:

Lastman: So has anyone been to a country where a ban is in place and can comment how it works in practise? Or uses one of the supermarkets that has stopped using bags?


 


The ban is in place in Victoria and Queensland and you either BYO bag or pay for a reusable bag. Coles have introduced a reasonably cheap (15c), reusable bag. It's more like a JB Hifi bag material than a normal supermarket bag. It really doesn't seem like a big deal there.



What's a jb hifi bag material?

 
 
 

You will find anything you want at MightyApe (affiliate link).
rugrat
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  #2073045 13-Aug-2018 23:24
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Batman:
Handle9:

 

Lastman: So has anyone been to a country where a ban is in place and can comment how it works in practise? Or uses one of the supermarkets that has stopped using bags?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The ban is in place in Victoria and Queensland and you either BYO bag or pay for a reusable bag. Coles have introduced a reasonably cheap (15c), reusable bag. It's more like a JB Hifi bag material than a normal supermarket bag. It really doesn't seem like a big deal there.

 



What's a jb hifi bag material?

 

 

 

Feels like thicker plastic to me :)


tdgeek
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  #2073046 13-Aug-2018 23:31
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Anyway, I feel paper bags are the go. Make them to fit kitchen rubbish bins too. While many have stated extra environmental issues (I assume CO2 used to create), this topic is about waterways and marine life damage. This needs to include all businesses that use plastic bags, including liquor stores, anywhere. As I stated earlier, other big business are into it, with other plastic packaging, it needs to be ALL collectible and ALL recycled, or use paper/cardboard. As for meat etc, this is 2018, we just launched an explorer that will orbit the Sun, I think we can cover off a topic such as shipping steak or mince to our home.




mattwnz
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  #2073049 14-Aug-2018 00:05
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I opened some custard powder this evening, and noticed the company has moved from sealing the powder in paper bag, they have shifted to clear plastic bags. So it seems some companies are moving into using plastic from paper. It seem common practice these days overseas that straws are paper, and not plastic. I would like to see companies doing a lot more. They seem to instead be pushing changes on the consumer, such as banning plastic bags at the checkout, but not doing very much themselves. Almost all products on the shelf in supermarkets would use some plastic, whether it is in the packaging material, or the coating on the product label.


mattwnz
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  #2073051 14-Aug-2018 00:07
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tdgeek:

 

Anyway, I feel paper bags are the go. Make them to fit kitchen rubbish bins too. While many have stated extra environmental issues (I assume CO2 used to create), this topic is about waterways and marine life damage. This needs to include all businesses that use plastic bags, including liquor stores, anywhere. As I stated earlier, other big business are into it, with other plastic packaging, it needs to be ALL collectible and ALL recycled, or use paper/cardboard. As for meat etc, this is 2018, we just launched an explorer that will orbit the Sun, I think we can cover off a topic such as shipping steak or mince to our home.

 

 

 

 

They would need some coating, like wax to make them stronger and not tear if they get damp. I would like to see new technology products such as cornstarch bags, which break down in a compost bin. Corn is a very versatile product.


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  #2073363 14-Aug-2018 15:34
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tdgeek:

 

Anyway, I feel paper bags are the go. Make them to fit kitchen rubbish bins too. While many have stated extra environmental issues (I assume CO2 used to create), this topic is about waterways and marine life damage.

 

No, paper bags are not "the go". There's no point saving the waterways if we destroy the entire planet the waterways are on through climate change. Paper bags are not a viable option.

 

mattwnz:

 

They would need some coating, like wax to make them stronger and not tear if they get damp. I would like to see new technology products such as cornstarch bags, which break down in a compost bin. Corn is a very versatile product.

 

 

Wax coatings make the bags non-recyclable through standard recycling methods, so they're even worse for the environment by ending up in landfill, and destroying the environment to create. Cornstarch could be onto something - as long as the production impacts don't exceed the potential benefits.


networkn
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  #2073371 14-Aug-2018 15:46
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tdgeek:

 

Anyway, I feel paper bags are the go. Make them to fit kitchen rubbish bins too. While many have stated extra environmental issues (I assume CO2 used to create), this topic is about waterways and marine life damage. This needs to include all businesses that use plastic bags, including liquor stores, anywhere. As I stated earlier, other big business are into it, with other plastic packaging, it needs to be ALL collectible and ALL recycled, or use paper/cardboard. As for meat etc, this is 2018, we just launched an explorer that will orbit the Sun, I think we can cover off a topic such as shipping steak or mince to our home.

 

 

Except, that if there is ANYTHING damp in the rubbish, then the bottom falls out!




tdgeek
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  #2073381 14-Aug-2018 16:02
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So plastic is out as it pollutes, paper bags are out as that causes emissions, so what left? Legislate that people bring their own containers? 


tdgeek
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  #2073384 14-Aug-2018 16:06
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Kyanar:

 

 

 

No, paper bags are not "the go". There's no point saving the waterways if we destroy the entire planet the waterways are on through climate change. Paper bags are not a viable option.

 

 

 

 

Everything causes emissions. We can't cease everything. There is nothing on your property or in your house that is emission free. We can only limit emissions to a level that the Earth can manage and help that along by planting more greenery, which we are busy removing. If we had a recycling regime, which it seems we largest dont, how much emissions are used for that?  


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  #2073386 14-Aug-2018 16:08
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tdgeek:

 

Kyanar:

 

 

 

No, paper bags are not "the go". There's no point saving the waterways if we destroy the entire planet the waterways are on through climate change. Paper bags are not a viable option.

 

 

 

 

Everything causes emissions. We can't cease everything. There is nothing on your property or in your house that is emission free. We can only limit emissions to a level that the Earth can manage and help that along by planting more greenery, which we are busy removing. If we had a recycling regime, which it seems we largest dont, how much emissions are used for that?  

 

 

No, but you don't replace plastic bags with paper bags if the net environmental impact is worse.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2073392 14-Aug-2018 16:14
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kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

Kyanar:

 

 

 

No, paper bags are not "the go". There's no point saving the waterways if we destroy the entire planet the waterways are on through climate change. Paper bags are not a viable option.

 

 

 

 

Everything causes emissions. We can't cease everything. There is nothing on your property or in your house that is emission free. We can only limit emissions to a level that the Earth can manage and help that along by planting more greenery, which we are busy removing. If we had a recycling regime, which it seems we largest dont, how much emissions are used for that?  

 

 

No, but you don't replace plastic bags with paper bags if the net environmental impact is worse.

 

 

 

 

Do plastic bags create less emissions than paper? Paper doesnt clog the waterways and marine life so thats a start.If plastics produce less, then plastics are better for air and paper is better for waterways. Unless you tell the globe to carry all your own containers everywhere, it doesn't seem a solution, particularly when someone posted that there are many other plastics that are worse in volume than shopping bags. I guess you could set $500 fines for littering as they do in Singapore and have a proper recycling system, and only use plastics that can be recycled as many cannot.


kryptonjohn
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  #2073403 14-Aug-2018 16:25
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tdgeek:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

Kyanar:

 

 

 

No, paper bags are not "the go". There's no point saving the waterways if we destroy the entire planet the waterways are on through climate change. Paper bags are not a viable option.

 

 

 

 

Everything causes emissions. We can't cease everything. There is nothing on your property or in your house that is emission free. We can only limit emissions to a level that the Earth can manage and help that along by planting more greenery, which we are busy removing. If we had a recycling regime, which it seems we largest dont, how much emissions are used for that?  

 

 

No, but you don't replace plastic bags with paper bags if the net environmental impact is worse.

 

 

 

 

Do plastic bags create less emissions than paper? Paper doesnt clog the waterways and marine life so thats a start.If plastics produce less, then plastics are better for air and paper is better for waterways. Unless you tell the globe to carry all your own containers everywhere, it doesn't seem a solution, particularly when someone posted that there are many other plastics that are worse in volume than shopping bags. I guess you could set $500 fines for littering as they do in Singapore and have a proper recycling system, and only use plastics that can be recycled as many cannot.

 

 

See the MOE discussion document referred to earlier in this thread... I would expect plastic bags to create zero emissions as a) they are a byproduct so they don't create additional emissions from their manufacture, and b) they don't break down so don't create emissions in the environment.

 

We just need to reduce unnecessary plastic usage, do a better job of recycling etc. No need to bring out the ban hammer. 

 

However in reality anything we do is symbolic as far as our oceans are concerned. 95% of the world's oceanic plastic pollution comes from 10 rivers (most of them in Asia) and most of that comes from mis-managed collected refuse.

 

 


debo
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  #2073415 14-Aug-2018 16:54
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tdgeek:

 

So plastic is out as it pollutes, paper bags are out as that causes emissions, so what left? Legislate that people bring their own containers? 

 

 

What is wrong with ultra thin degradable plastic bags?  They don't accumulate in the oceans, they contain little plastic, and are not as harmful to produce as natural alternatives like paper and cotton.

 

BTW,  "waxed paper" has been replaced with either plastic laminate paper or plastic infused paper.


MikeAqua
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  #2073416 14-Aug-2018 17:05
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The comparisons I have seen for plastic bags vs alternate products don't consider impacts after shopping.  They aren't full life-cycle assessments. 

 

It also has to be said that the impacts of production of cotton/hemp/pine  can be reduced with better management and emissions could be offset by for example planting trees. Impacts that have already occurred are somewhat reversible and remediable.

 

Whereas there is no such improvement opportunity for some plastics, so substitution is the only response. 

 

Impacts of micro-plastic are not reversible or remediable and impacts of macro-plastic on the ocean are not easily remediable.

 

Even so-called compostable or biodegradable bags may have a reasonably long life in the water and their persistence and toxicity within animals that ingest them is unclear.

 

Not easy ...





Mike


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  #2073424 14-Aug-2018 17:29
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If I was to eat a handful of sand or a handful of plastic in sand-sized particles, I expect it would all just get excreted the same. But then I'm quite ignorant about how my digestive system really works.

 

So what I'd like to know is how micro-plastic is different from e.g. sand. Millions of tons of soil, including particles of all sizes from silt to gravel to probably boulders, wash into the sea every day. Presumably marine animals ingest the dirt as a matter of course, and process it somehow. They surely don't decompose the sand, so they must excrete it (or carry it around forever). Why can't they excrete plastic the same way?

 

 

 

 


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