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  Reply # 2074150 15-Aug-2018 18:43
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kryptonjohn:

 

Landfill isn't fantastic but it's one hell of a lot better than oceanfill. If it is done properly it is... ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we need to focus more on recycling and reusing, rather than banning. I am pretty sure we used to do more recycling than we do now.  It all comes down to economics.  Polar fleece clothing for example used to be made out of plastic milkbottles, not sure if they do that so much these days. I wonder how long it will be before they are banned, especially they very heavy duty ones that don't let any light through.


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  Reply # 2074152 15-Aug-2018 18:49
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kryptonjohn:

 

Landfill isn't fantastic but it's one hell of a lot better than oceanfill. If it is done properly it is... ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Id have thought so, items that stay as they are seems ideal for landfill, plastic included. As you say, if done properly. Humans are useless, the issue is $. Everything is defined by $. Recycling should be easy, landfills, stopping pollution should be easy. But we dont do it. We will though. China and the US fully support climate change (Ignore Trump he is gone soon), AFTER we have used up cheaper coal. That is our problem. I am sure MANY individuals see the right way, but the upper 0.005% that govern see the $ and the votes  


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  Reply # 2074192 15-Aug-2018 19:45
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mattwnz:

 

Pretty sure this has been researched before, but not sure how much of an issue it is. Some people buy  plastic bag liners for them... Fruit and veges areas though usually provide plastic bags to put fruit and veges in. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Surely these have to be banned under the new law banning single use plastic bags? They're much less likely to be used a second time, even as a bin liner, they have no handles, and are pitifully small - yet still just as much as an environmental hazard.


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  Reply # 2074201 15-Aug-2018 20:38
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Ge0rge:

 

Surely these have to be banned under the new law banning single use plastic bags? They're much less likely to be used a second time, even as a bin liner, they have no handles, and are pitifully small - yet still just as much as an environmental hazard.

 

 

Nope, they're an exemption. There's no practical alternative.


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  Reply # 2074207 15-Aug-2018 21:05
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Kyanar:

 

Ge0rge:

 

Surely these have to be banned under the new law banning single use plastic bags? They're much less likely to be used a second time, even as a bin liner, they have no handles, and are pitifully small - yet still just as much as an environmental hazard.

 

 

Nope, they're an exemption. There's no practical alternative.

 

 

There are degradable plastic bag options available.  


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  Reply # 2074208 15-Aug-2018 21:15
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debo:

 

Kyanar:

 

Ge0rge:

 

Surely these have to be banned under the new law banning single use plastic bags? They're much less likely to be used a second time, even as a bin liner, they have no handles, and are pitifully small - yet still just as much as an environmental hazard.

 

 

Nope, they're an exemption. There's no practical alternative.

 

 

There are degradable plastic bag options available.  

 

 

They've also been using paper bags as an option to plastic when selling mushrooms - because in that case paper has advantages - and I haven't heard anybody complaining about it.

 

BTW I don't use (didn't as the case is now) shopping bags as bin liners because they have holes in them - oozy stuff oozes, so you have to clean the bin anyway, they are effectively useless.  The very lightweight plastic bags in the produce department, I actually did re-use in the kitchen - including for storage of stuff I'd grown in my garden - to store excess in the fridge without it drying out etc.

 

 


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  Reply # 2074231 15-Aug-2018 22:33
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Total PR front/scam.

 

Make the world think you're awesome by lowering number of things you can visually see laying around in trees, bushes, fences waterways.

 

Walk past the same supermarkets (examples in chc. Spitfire square, south city) where there is a sushi bar or foodcourt nearby. Look what fills the rubbish bins.

 

Just because we don't see it everywhere. Doesn't mean there isn't a deeper issue with the way we treat plastics.


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  Reply # 2074241 15-Aug-2018 22:59
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Oblivian:

 

Total PR front/scam.

 

Make the world think you're awesome by lowering number of things you can visually see laying around in trees, bushes, fences waterways.

 

Walk past the same supermarkets (examples in chc. Spitfire square, south city) where there is a sushi bar or foodcourt nearby. Look what fills the rubbish bins.

 

Just because we don't see it everywhere. Doesn't mean there isn't a deeper issue with the way we treat plastics.

 

 

Totally agree. Ban the bag at check out but what is offerred at the bakery, bulk food or deli section?

 

The super market industry is hooked on cheap shiny plastic for presentation. 6 cup cakes in an egg-carton style cardboard carrier is nowhere near as attractive as a plastic wrapper alternative.

 

But let's not beat up on one supermarket chain, look at every product in every shop. All wrapped in at least one layer of plastic.

 

 

 

One thing I want to know is why can a country like Chile run a deposit and re-use scheme for their soft drink bottles but those clever number-8 innovative kiwi types just throw theirs away?

 

Is it all, as @tdgeek says , about the $$? We really deserve everything that's coming to us, that's for sure.


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  Reply # 2074243 15-Aug-2018 23:47
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What are paper bags like in practice? I’ve been to
Manila where plastic bags were banned due to causing floods from blocked water ways and drains. Carrying groceries without handles gets boring real quick so say good bye to seeing people lugging their groceries by hand back home for any decent distance/quantity.

Pro-tip - don’t place anything that’s below ambient temperature in paper bags. The condensation will promptly land your loot on the pavement.

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  Reply # 2074285 16-Aug-2018 08:21
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MadEngineer: What are paper bags like in practice? I’ve been to
Manila where plastic bags were banned due to causing floods from blocked water ways and drains. Carrying groceries without handles gets boring real quick so say good bye to seeing people lugging their groceries by hand back home for any decent distance/quantity.

Pro-tip - don’t place anything that’s below ambient temperature in paper bags. The condensation will promptly land your loot on the pavement.

 

What do you think supermarkets packed groceries in 20-30 years ago?

 

I bought several items from Mitre 10 this week and was told I couldnt have a plastic bag, but I could purchase a paper bag for 20cents. I laughed and left all my goods at the shop and walked out. Is this the best retailers can do? Its all about money for them.


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  Reply # 2074288 16-Aug-2018 08:34
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Don't know what a paper bag costs, but HDPE supermarket bags are a fraction of a cent. 

 

Bunnings have racks of cardboard boxes behind the checkouts you can help yourself to.

 

 


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  Reply # 2074291 16-Aug-2018 08:37
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Not sure if it's been mentioned. But on an environmental level paper bags take 4x the amount of water and expelled contaminant energy to produce.

And from memory (article on tv a few weeks back) 8x the cost.

They compared paper and those $1 jute ones to plastics. And you had to use most things 12-14 reuse times to 1 to break even on production value/costs.

Edit.. found
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/not-all-plastic-evil-bags-may-more-environmentally-friendly-than-some-alternatives

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/96890019/are-cotton-or-paper-bags-really-better-than-plastic


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  Reply # 2074294 16-Aug-2018 08:46
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Yep, a Ministry of Environment paper is cited somewhere earlier in this thread - with a table that rates different containers against plastic. The worst case was an organic cotton bag which needed to be re-used tens of thousands of times before it attained the ecological footprint of a "single use" supermarket bag.

 

 


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  Reply # 2074297 16-Aug-2018 08:52
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Kyanar:

 

MikeAqua:

 

The comparisons I have seen for plastic bags vs alternate products don't consider impacts after shopping.  They aren't full life-cycle assessments. 

 

 

This indicates to me you haven't even read the MoE consultation paper, as it specifically compares against three seperate reuse scenarios ranging from most to least likely. In all cases, the plastic bags come out as "least bad".

 

 

You are absolutely right. I haven't. I'll try and remember to read it. Does it include any new work or is it a review of existing?

 

I've read half a dozen N hemisphere papers.  I concluded the effective population was three reports. I'm somewhat dubious about the approach of analysing trade-offs between different environmental impacts.  Those approaches mostly reflect the weighting placed on the various impacts. 

 

None I have seen really analysed the impacts of plastics that end up in the environment.  For example if a disposable supermarket bag ends up in the ocean what happens vs durable plastic bag vs a hemp bag vs a cotton bag vs a hessian bag.  It's a difficult topic to analyse, but it's the impact that most interests me. 

 

Where I landed as explained in another post is that I have almost eliminated shopping bags altogether.





Mike

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  Reply # 2074300 16-Aug-2018 09:00
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Kyanar:

 

Ge0rge:

 

Surely these [ disposable palstic bags in produce section of supermarkets] have to be banned under the new law banning single use plastic bags? They're much less likely to be used a second time, even as a bin liner, they have no handles, and are pitifully small - yet still just as much as an environmental hazard.

 

 

Nope, they're an exemption. There's no practical alternative.

 

 

The supermarkets I shop at have paper bags.  They worked just fine in the 1970s.  Most fruit and veges don't need a plastic bag at all.  With a little common sense and care, they can just go straight in the trolley or basket until the check out.  After checkout is another issue, but at least the bag within a bag has been avoided.

 

Pre-packaged meat and poultry, I really don't see a practical alternative for.





Mike

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