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117 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 2074654 16-Aug-2018 22:42
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elpenguino:

 

 

 

The first part of the eco mantra is 'reduce' - so for best effect on the planet, we should avoid single use anything no matter what it is made of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Singe use is often environmentally better than reusable eg glass vs plastic milk bottles.  MOTHER NATURE itself is a fan of "single use". Every Autumn it throws out its single use leaves, with out a care in the world, clogging up my guttering.  Perhaps we should ban deciduous trees.


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  Reply # 2074656 16-Aug-2018 22:53
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debo:

 

elpenguino:

 

 

 

The first part of the eco mantra is 'reduce' - so for best effect on the planet, we should avoid single use anything no matter what it is made of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Singe use is often environmentally better than reusable eg glass vs plastic milk bottles.  MOTHER NATURE itself is a fan of "single use". Every Autumn it throws out its single use leaves, with out a care in the world, clogging up my guttering.  Perhaps we should ban deciduous trees.

 

 

Surely you must understand that mother nature is not single use. the leaves turn into compost that the worms eat to break them down into fertilizer that feeds the new trees. That's called recycling.

 

Plastic - use it and it remains plastic forever. It doesn't get eaten by worms and turned into food for fish.





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2074758 17-Aug-2018 11:19
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debo:

 

Not true.  Degradable plastic degrades (the clue is in its name).  It does not produce micro plastics.  It does not need specialised facilities and will break down in the oceans. In landfill it doesn't degrade but I think that is an environmental advantage.  It contains catalysts that break down the plastic at a molecular level. The long-chained polymers themselves break down into smaller monomers, with can be consumed by bacteria. It can be designed at manufacture to last a set amount of time before the degradation begins.  It is also compatible with the current machinery for making bags, bottles, trays etc so its use can be implemented immediately.  It is still made out of oil and there is little additional environmental cost in its production, unlike bio-plastics made from plant sources.

 

 

The Australian Government thought the same thing so launched a senate enquiry. As it happens, they were wrong, as are you now. Degradable and biodegradable plastic bags are as bad as if not worse than lightweight plastic bags. And your assertion that it does not break down into micro plastics is totally false.

 

In fact not only did the Australian senate enquiry find that, so did the New Zealand Ministry for the Environment in the discussion paper that's been linked in this very thread. I'd encourage you to actually read it to correct some of the misconceptions around environmental impacts of various options.


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2075341 18-Aug-2018 15:38
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Oblivian:

 

Not sure if it's been mentioned. But on an environmental level paper bags take 4x the amount of water and expelled contaminant energy to produce.

And from memory (article on tv a few weeks back) 8x the cost.

They compared paper and those $1 jute ones to plastics. And you had to use most things 12-14 reuse times to 1 to break even on production value/costs.

Edit.. found
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/not-all-plastic-evil-bags-may-more-environmentally-friendly-than-some-alternatives

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/96890019/are-cotton-or-paper-bags-really-better-than-plastic

 

 

 

 

Yup, they've seen this from studies in Scotland and England. As far as carriers, there's really nothing wrong with the 'single use' plastic bag. They are a marvel of science - light, strong, thin, etc. The only thing wrong is the way people dispose of them. That isn't the fault of the bag. The public has been well and truly fooled though. A friend of mine set up a Facebook poll with a choice of for and against, and of those who voted, six times more people thought that the ban was a good idea.

 

https://www.gov.scot/Resource/Doc/57346/0016899.pdf

 

 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/291023/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf

 

 


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  Reply # 2078537 24-Aug-2018 14:09
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Hey man, we're only borrowing, not stealing, honest!

 

 


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  Reply # 2078539 24-Aug-2018 14:11
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freitasm:

 

Countdown supermarket shoppers steal baskets, trolleys to counter single-use plastic bag ban...

 

 

i can vouch for this in Rotorua, the countdown in the shopping Mall which is mainly used by tourists, has stopped plastic bags and on the first day there was shopping carts spread near and wide around the car park and side streets.





Common sense is not as common as you think.


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2078599 24-Aug-2018 15:13
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da5id:

 

Oblivian:

 

Not sure if it's been mentioned. But on an environmental level paper bags take 4x the amount of water and expelled contaminant energy to produce.

And from memory (article on tv a few weeks back) 8x the cost.

They compared paper and those $1 jute ones to plastics. And you had to use most things 12-14 reuse times to 1 to break even on production value/costs.

Edit.. found
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/not-all-plastic-evil-bags-may-more-environmentally-friendly-than-some-alternatives

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/96890019/are-cotton-or-paper-bags-really-better-than-plastic

 

 

Yup, they've seen this from studies in Scotland and England. As far as carriers, there's really nothing wrong with the 'single use' plastic bag. They are a marvel of science - light, strong, thin, etc. The only thing wrong is the way people dispose of them. That isn't the fault of the bag. 

 

 

So to paraphrase from the NRA, what you're saying is bags don't kill dolphins, people kill dolphins ?


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  Reply # 2078778 24-Aug-2018 20:38
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elpenguino:

da5id:


Oblivian:


Not sure if it's been mentioned. But on an environmental level paper bags take 4x the amount of water and expelled contaminant energy to produce.

And from memory (article on tv a few weeks back) 8x the cost.

They compared paper and those $1 jute ones to plastics. And you had to use most things 12-14 reuse times to 1 to break even on production value/costs.

Edit.. found
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/not-all-plastic-evil-bags-may-more-environmentally-friendly-than-some-alternatives

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/96890019/are-cotton-or-paper-bags-really-better-than-plastic



Yup, they've seen this from studies in Scotland and England. As far as carriers, there's really nothing wrong with the 'single use' plastic bag. They are a marvel of science - light, strong, thin, etc. The only thing wrong is the way people dispose of them. That isn't the fault of the bag. 



So to paraphrase from the NRA, what you're saying is bags don't kill dolphins, people kill dolphins ?



why shouldn't we ban alcohol and cigarettes at the same time? They kill people.




Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  Reply # 2078904 25-Aug-2018 09:45
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elpenguino:

 

So to paraphrase from the NRA, what you're saying is bags don't kill dolphins, people kill dolphins ?

 

 

 

 

Maybe they do: Countdown supermarket shoppers steal baskets, trolleys to counter single-use plastic bag ban


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  Reply # 2078922 25-Aug-2018 10:56
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freitasm:

 

Countdown supermarket shoppers steal baskets, trolleys to counter single-use plastic bag ban...

 

 

 

 

Am I the only one who is imagining a Kiwi version of Bubbles?






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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 2078971 25-Aug-2018 13:01
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I own a business that produces plastic bags, not the supermarket ones though as nobody in nz makes them they are all imported. I am meeting with Dana Peterson - Senior Analyst - Ministry for the Environment and then hopefully will get the chance to put our point of view across to the select committee when it meets to take submissions.





Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding : Ice cream man , Ice cream man




209 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 2079043 25-Aug-2018 14:35
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It will be fascinating to see how this progresses in NZ, we do tend to be fairly reluctant to be dictated to by governments.

It has parallels with the energy efficient lightbulb saga where the government had to backtrack, in the end, due to unfavourable public opinion.

Can’t see Labour changing it’s mind this time and there’s not been a lot of political play from the other side as they have been trying to up their “green” cred under Simon Bridges.

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  Reply # 2079144 25-Aug-2018 19:25
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This government would like to ban everything including men.


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  Reply # 2079145 25-Aug-2018 19:27
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That was fairly predictable.

It'd be nice to keep politics in the politics forum but I guess some people can't help themselves.

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