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5385 posts

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  # 2155917 7-Jan-2019 17:02
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SaltyNZ:

TL;DR “Things are crap” does not mean “census is useless”.

 

The actual model followed for about at least the last 35 years in NZ is:

 

1) Wait until existing assets/services are absolutely heaving, or falling apart; and then

 

2) Reluctantly shell out for something that will be barely adequate the day it's opened. 

 

A census is not needed for a reactionary and unplanned infrastructure programme. The only data needed for that approach is actual usage vs capacity.

 

The last vaguely strategic infrastructure programme in NZ was 'Think Big'  

 

 





Mike

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  # 2155919 7-Jan-2019 17:10
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You're main argument is wrong, sigh. Your flawed interpretation of the statute leads to the wrong conclusion.

 

doctrox:

 

Here is Section 24 of the Statistics Act 1975:

 

24 Particulars to be collected at census

 

(1) At every census of population and dwellings particulars relating to all of the following matters shall be obtained from every occupier or person in charge of a dwelling:
...

 

(2) At any census of population and dwellings, the Statistician may, if he considers it in the public interest so to do, obtain from every occupier or person in charge of a dwelling particulars relating to all or any of the following additional matters:”
...

 

However, subsection (2) is where deception is employed. Caesar is attempting to conflate what is legally required (i.e. the “census”), with what is not legally required (i.e. “additional matters”).

 

Notice the two words above that I have bolded. Subsection (1), pertaining to the “census,” states “shall.” And subsection (2), pertaining to “additional matters,” states “may”... and may denotes permission!

 

Yes, the citizen shall provide the census information. And while Caesar’s Statistician may ask you about “additional matters,” he cannot legally require you, without your permission, to answer those additionals.

 

 

In that statue the word "may" does not denote permission. It authorises the Statistician to take up the possibility of gathering more information. It does not require the permission of the people in New Zealand before that additional information can be requested.

 

You've cherry picked the meaning which fits your argument and ignored the actual syntax. I'm referring to the Oxford Dictionary below. You may have been mislead by other dictionaries that give greater prominence to meaning 2 at the expense of meaning 1.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/may

 

may

 

modal verb

 

1  Expressing possibility.
‘that may be true’
‘he may well win’

 

1.1 Used when admitting that something is so before making another, more important point.
‘they may have been old-fashioned but they were excellent teachers’

 

2  Used to ask for or to give permission.
‘you may confirm my identity with your Case Officer, if you wish’
‘may I ask a few questions?’

 

3  Expressing a wish or hope.
‘may she rest in peace’

 

P.S. Edited quote to try to remove extra blank lines. Removed repeated word.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2155927 7-Jan-2019 17:32
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I do not disagree with the census in principle. I accept that demographic data is useful and necessary. But I strongly disagree with the way the census is conducted and I regard it as a gross invasion of privacy. You can disagree with this all you like, but it is genuinely how I feel.

 

Every time this comes up for discussion, the usual bla bla is rolled out about how privacy is protected and no unauthorised people can access the information. Tell that to the German politicians and celebrities who have just been hacked!

 

Recent history demonstrates, again and again, that 'security' equals zero security. All the guarantees in the world are pure BS. Remember the WINZ kiosks? I am proud to wear a tinfoil hat where that is concerned. 

 

I do not break the law, but I do bend it wherever I can. Every time there is a census, I take an overseas holiday. If you are not in the country, you do not have to be counted. In fact, you cannot be. This is perfectly legal.

 

Census data is not shared to the 'unauthorised', but it is not anonymous, either. When it genuinely is anonymous, I will gladly participate. Not before.

 

 

 

  

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2155979 7-Jan-2019 20:23
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Mark: What was the purpose of that post ?  I got lost trying to read it. 

quickymart: Can I get a TL;DR summary please? 

 

Make sure you know how the law applies to you. In this case specifically the census. Once you know that, only give the legally minimum required info. Do not volunteer anything extra.

 

 

 

undecided It wasn't made clear if doctrox or surrounding people didn't fill in enough information or if they volunteered too much. foot-in-mouth Obviously there have been consequences.





Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.


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  # 2155983 7-Jan-2019 20:34
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Jase2985: how is society suppose to make important decisions on things like schools or infrastructure without this information? 

 

If society really needs this information, should it not be law? Somebody has decided that part of the census information is optional instead of mandatory. Is the optional data already being collected by other means? Is the collected data being kept secure? Is the collected data only being used for census purposes?

 

SaltyNZ: They might be even WORSE without census data.

 

Conversely, it could also be better. Simply stating 'it could be worse' is very much like saying 'but think of the children ...'.
Admittedly, I don't know if I'd like being part of that society more than this society. I can also tell you, I'd rather the guv'mint collect this data than the advertisers & related 3rd parties.





Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.


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  # 2155991 7-Jan-2019 21:19
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IcI:

Mark: What was the purpose of that post ?  I got lost trying to read it. 

quickymart: Can I get a TL;DR summary please? 


Make sure you know how the law applies to you. In this case specifically the census. Once you know that, only give the legally minimum required info. Do not volunteer anything extra.


 


undecided It wasn't made clear if doctrox or surrounding people didn't fill in enough information or if they volunteered too much. foot-in-mouth Obviously there have been consequences.



According to the reply to the following OIA request you are required to fill in the forms according to instructions given as such there is no minimum requirement.

https://fyi.org.nz/request/7384/response/24091/attach/html/7/OIA0048%20Stewart%20Legal%20requirement%20Census%20response.pdf.html



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  # 2157035 9-Jan-2019 13:58
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In that statue the word "may" does not denote permission. It authorises the Statistician to take up the possibility of gathering more information. It does not require the permission of the people in New Zealand before that additional information can be requested.

 

Precisely, which confirms my point, and that is, again…

 

And while Caesar’s Statistician may ask you about “additional matters,” he cannot legally require you, without your permission, to answer those additionals.

 

It is Caesar’s modus operandi to manipulate those “possibilities” to his benefit, but, as his law states, the Statistician may ask, by law, all day long, but the citizen is not required, by law, to answer – unless, of course, he agrees to answer.

 

…But I strongly disagree with the way the census is conducted and I regard it as a gross invasion of privacy. 

 

…When [the census is] genuinely is anonymous, I will gladly participate. Not before.

 

and

 

If society really needs this information, should it not be law? Somebody has decided that part of the census information is optional instead of mandatory. Is the optional data already being collected by other means? Is the collected data being kept secure? Is the collected data only being used for census purposes?

 

Indeed, overlapping data is being collected from a myriad of other areas (another topic for another time).  But there you have it. Someone knows that something is not quite right here…

 

Make sure you know how the law applies to you. In this case specifically the census. Once you know that, only give the legally minimum required info. Do not volunteer anything extra.

 

Exactly. However, most people are of the herd mentality i.e. the belief of safety in numbers, even if privacy is violated and freedoms are forsaken.

 

It wasn't made clear if doctrox or surrounding people didn't fill in enough information or if they volunteered too much. Obviously there have been consequences.

 

In similar circumstances of the past, I had compromised my position by not knowing what is, and what is not, ‘too much information.’ But I have since brought my game come up-to-speed.  BTW, I have never been taken to task for not “fill[ing] in enough information.”

 

According to the reply to the following OIA request you are required to fill in the forms according to instructions given as such there is no minimum requirement…

 

Precisely i.e. in accordance with instructions given.  That response to an OIA request is a perfect example of Caesar's obfuscation.  Again, Caesar is counting on the fact that most people will not bother to learn what “according to instructions” means!  Caesar tells us, in his own law, what is required and what is not required.  It is up to us, to cut through the legalese and discern the difference and thus help keep our privacy and freedoms intact.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2157064 9-Jan-2019 14:36
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doctrox:

 

In that statue the word "may" does not denote permission. It authorises the Statistician to take up the possibility of gathering more information. It does not require the permission of the people in New Zealand before that additional information can be requested.

 

Precisely, which confirms my point, and that is, again…

 

And while Caesar’s Statistician may ask you about “additional matters,” he cannot legally require you, without your permission, to answer those additionals.

 

It is Caesar’s modus operandi to manipulate those “possibilities” to his benefit, but, as his law states, the Statistician may ask, by law, all day long, but the citizen is not required, by law, to answer – unless, of course, he agrees to answer.

 

 

No, it says the exact opposite of what you've said.

 

And the New Zealand Government is not Caesar. This is not ancient Rome. You just sound silly talking like that.


gzt

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# 2157075 9-Jan-2019 14:46
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Unless - Imperial Rome became the Holy Roman Empire which became the Vatican which controls all the governments and gets their census information - then it makes perfect sense!

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  # 2157080 9-Jan-2019 14:50
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doctrox:

 

In that statue the word "may" does not denote permission. It authorises the Statistician to take up the possibility of gathering more information. It does not require the permission of the people in New Zealand before that additional information can be requested.

 

Precisely, which confirms my point, and that is, again…

 

And while Caesar’s Statistician may ask you about “additional matters,” he cannot legally require you, without your permission, to answer those additionals.

 

It is Caesar’s modus operandi to manipulate those “possibilities” to his benefit, but, as his law states, the Statistician may ask, by law, all day long, but the citizen is not required, by law, to answer – unless, of course, he agrees to answer.

 

 

What I said does not confirm your point! I disproved your original point and you simply ignored that and are choosing to follow another misleading line of logic. This time you are conflating two separate points regarding "possibility": the possibility of additional questions and the possibility that you won't answer.

 

You are not provided any option to "possibly" answer. Any additional questions operate under the same requirement with the sames provisions (Section 43) for you to be prosecuted if you won't comply.

 

 


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  # 2157125 9-Jan-2019 15:43
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No wonder we don't have enough houses, doctors, nurses, roads, buses.

Because of people like these




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 2157142 9-Jan-2019 15:51
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Maybe, but I doubt it. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2157171 9-Jan-2019 17:01
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Good grief , look The Census is vital how else is the authority to know where to concentrate the Chem Trails, install the listening devices and cameras. undecided





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2157746 10-Jan-2019 19:45
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I'm a medical researcher and use census data extensively. Having accurate census data so we can better understand diseases and associated risks is a terrible thing isn't it?!

 

There are extremely strict standards around access to census data and Stats NZ does an excellent job ensuring privacy, confidentiality, and security.


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  # 2157757 10-Jan-2019 20:45
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zenourn:

 

I'm a medical researcher and use census data extensively. Having accurate census data so we can better understand diseases and associated risks is a terrible thing isn't it?!

 

There are extremely strict standards around access to census data and Stats NZ does an excellent job ensuring privacy, confidentiality, and security.

 

 

I'm surprised a serious medical researcher would try to use an unprofessional emotional argument like this. The census does not provide any information that isn't already available. It just improves the resolution a little. 

 

Every time I hear about strict security standards and how excellently privacy is ensured and how much it is valued, I think of all the breaches that occur around the world on an almost daily basis. Even the CIA gets hacked. No organisation anywhere can give an absolute guarantee of privacy and any one that claims to is just blowing smoke.

 

There is no good reason to retain personally identifiable information to the end of time. Any value the data has is not dependant on that.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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