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5778 posts

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  # 2159632 12-Jan-2019 12:30
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Hammerer:

 

I would now be expected to know about 10 such people.

 

That's not how statistics work.  It's an average of the whole population, not your individual experience.  You could be in a room with 100 people and all of them be healthy.  


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  # 2159651 12-Jan-2019 13:20
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This thread keeps going off topic. I don't want to add to that so am posting my last reply in the marijuana legalisation thread, which is more appropriate. 

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=231923&page_no=11#2159649

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 




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  # 2159788 12-Jan-2019 16:17
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I vote the same as the ACT 50grams personal use.

I personally believe its Indica that I need. I dont want government CBD tablets, its so cost prohibitive its nonsensical.

If people want to smoke it to enjoy themselves in the privacy of their home, I have no issue with that.

I do think farms should be monitored to make sure product sold is genuine 100% cannabis and not laced like a lot of black market.

I think people should be allowed to grow their own just like people homebrew and distill alcohol. But there needs to be a seed bank so people know what they are growing as sativa for example will give people with anxiety issues panic attacks, thats where the only harm comes from imo.

Crushed flowers for resin to be used in vaporizers for medical purposes should be legal. Minature resin machines done by pressure and heat should be legal.

Ultimately I think;

1. Medical cannabis should have no difference to recreational outside what you are vapping, ie Indica strains for muscle spasms, pain, muscle relaxation, anxiety
2. People should be allowed to grow a small amount for personal use whether medical or recreational, and or have 50gms for personal use.
3. The government should lower use taxes from medicial cannabis in an accountable pool, not just the usual whatever is left over from the fiscal budget. Perhaps something like drug addiction and eduction.

I know I wouldnt enjoy sativa so I dont think Id find it recreationally enjoyable, in saying that not having spasms and feeling relaxed like Opiates and Benzos do, is enjoyable as you feel semi normal not constantly fighting pain mentally. I have read this is a big thing for many medical patients. And if Im locked in my couch and I giggle a bit, omg how terribly harmful to society, while some guy buys a 40z of bourbon then drives and wipes out a family of 5 in a head on collision.

It really is so ridiculous that the plant is illegal and it all came from a man who was as corrupt enough to rig the presidency voting, watergate via Nixon, the war on drugs. Clearly taking opiates and benzos is FAR more harmful than smoking a couple of puffs of cannabis. So when probably the majority of the country have either smoked it or are smoking it, why do low IQ politicians red tape the obvious. Yet Alcohol is legal, wtf.


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  # 2161580 15-Jan-2019 15:08
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TeaLeaf:.

Ultimately I think;

1. Medical cannabis should have no difference to recreational outside what you are vapping, ie Indica strains for muscle spasms, pain, muscle relaxation, anxiety
2. People should be allowed to grow a small amount for personal use whether medical or recreational, and or have 50gms for personal use.
3. The government should lower use taxes from medicial cannabis in an accountable pool, not just the usual whatever is left over from the fiscal budget. Perhaps something like drug addiction and eduction.

 

 

I agree with you.   

 

I'd only add that there needs to be some stricter rules around young people and cannabis, as there is evidence it damages developing brains.  If the evidence changes, then that could be reevaluated. 

 

 


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  # 2161707 15-Jan-2019 18:35
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gehenna:

 

This is a sad statistic https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-more-likely-to-die-from-accidental-opioid-overdose-than-in-a-car-accident/ 

 

 

The Province I'm in - Alberta - has a population slightly less than New Zealand (about 4.3 million) and a similar road toll, about one death a day, give or take.
Opioid deaths have hit 2 a day now. Twice the road toll.

 

One of those deaths, in the last quarter of 2018, was the son of a close friend.
A clever, talented guy, with a job, a partner, professional parents, and a great future ahead of him..What a waste. Their lives are shattered.

 

It's not only the deaths.
There are a massive number of OD's now where first aid and access to drugs such as Naloxone saves the person's life, but leaves them with varying levels of  brain damage - Around 30,000 a year in the US.

 

The 'war on drugs' hasn't worked. Time to try something different.


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  # 2161716 15-Jan-2019 19:07
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I feel uncomfortable using tragedies to support either side of  the argument. That kind of logic can be used to justify or condemn almost anything. The current approach has been tried for years and has brought us to the current situation. That alone ought to be sufficient reason to try something else. It can hardly make things any worse.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2161718 15-Jan-2019 19:23
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@gehenna:
nakedmolerat: If you think Cannabis is the holy grail of pain medication, then you are in la la la land....


And if you doubt it's efficacy for certain purposes you're also in la la land. I'm not going to take morphine for constipation because that's not its purpose, there are things for which cannabis will and won't be deemed efficacious.

 

out of 14 patients that take cannabis as pain med, only 1 will get benefit. so yeah...

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5549367/

 

https://www.acfp.ca/wp-content/uploads/tools-for-practice/1510681044_tfp199mmandpainfv.pdf

 

Are medical cannabinoids (MC) effective for the treatment of pain?

 

 

Bottom Line: Evidence for inhaled marijuana for pain is too sparse and poor to provide good evidence-based guidance. Synthetic MC-derived products may modestly improve neuropathic pain for one in 11-14 users but perhaps not for other pain types. Additionally, longer and larger studies (better evidence) show no effect. Adverse events are plentiful.

 

 

The full document is available here.

 

  • Chronic pain: 39% experience pain reduction of >30% versus 30% with placebo, resulting in a number needed to treat (NNT)=11. Larger and longer RCT show no effects. The mean pain improvement is 0.5 on a 0-10 scale, which isn’t clinically meaningful.
  • Neuropathic pain: With inhaled MC, the NNT=6. With any MC, the NNT=14.
  • Cancer pain: In six randomized controlled trials, the pain reduction was not statistically significant.
  • HIV neuropathy: with smoked MC: NNT=4.
  • Pain from multiple sclerosis: Mean pain improvement over placebo was 0.8 on a 1-10 scale which was borderline insignificant.
  • Acute pain: One positive trial, one negative trial, and five trials showing MC is equivalent to placebo.
  • When compared to medication, MC was no better than amitriptyline (with more adverse events), or worse than dihydrocodeine with similar adverse events.
  • No overall differences shown in quality of life.
  • Little evidence for back pain, fibromyalgia, or osteoarthritis.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-where-is-the-evidence/

 

 






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  # 2161725 15-Jan-2019 19:28
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nakedmolerat:

 

@gehenna:
nakedmolerat: If you think Cannabis is the holy grail of pain medication, then you are in la la la land....


And if you doubt it's efficacy for certain purposes you're also in la la land. I'm not going to take morphine for constipation because that's not its purpose, there are things for which cannabis will and won't be deemed efficacious.

 

out of 14 patients that take cannabis as pain med, only 1 will get benefit. so yeah...

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5549367/

 

https://www.acfp.ca/wp-content/uploads/tools-for-practice/1510681044_tfp199mmandpainfv.pdf

 

Are medical cannabinoids (MC) effective for the treatment of pain?

 

 

Bottom Line: Evidence for inhaled marijuana for pain is too sparse and poor to provide good evidence-based guidance. Synthetic MC-derived products may modestly improve neuropathic pain for one in 11-14 users but perhaps not for other pain types. Additionally, longer and larger studies (better evidence) show no effect. Adverse events are plentiful.

 

 

The full document is available here.

 

  • Chronic pain: 39% experience pain reduction of >30% versus 30% with placebo, resulting in a number needed to treat (NNT)=11. Larger and longer RCT show no effects. The mean pain improvement is 0.5 on a 0-10 scale, which isn’t clinically meaningful.
  • Neuropathic pain: With inhaled MC, the NNT=6. With any MC, the NNT=14.
  • Cancer pain: In six randomized controlled trials, the pain reduction was not statistically significant.
  • HIV neuropathy: with smoked MC: NNT=4.
  • Pain from multiple sclerosis: Mean pain improvement over placebo was 0.8 on a 1-10 scale which was borderline insignificant.
  • Acute pain: One positive trial, one negative trial, and five trials showing MC is equivalent to placebo.
  • When compared to medication, MC was no better than amitriptyline (with more adverse events), or worse than dihydrocodeine with similar adverse events.
  • No overall differences shown in quality of life.
  • Little evidence for back pain, fibromyalgia, or osteoarthritis.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-where-is-the-evidence/

 

 

 

 

Just wait till the cannabis companies do their own "research" :D

 

I wonder what "evidence" they will "find" ... hmm ... let me think ...





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 2161737 15-Jan-2019 19:51
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Batman:

 

Just wait till the cannabis companies do their own "research" :D

 

I wonder what "evidence" they will "find" ... hmm ... let me think ...

 

 

 

 

Heh yeah - just remember many larger studies and RCT confirm that there are no benefit.

 

One of the reasons why Pharmac is not interested in funding them.






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  # 2161738 15-Jan-2019 19:51
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The above documentation/studies are one-sided and can be countered by other evidence. However, it is a lot to go through and I can't do that right now. I will try to give it a proper going over in the coming days.

 

In the meantime, it is worth noting that this data only deals with the effectiveness of pain relief. Even if cannabis is not a good for that, which is questionable in view of the considerable evidence to the contrary, many people who use it do so to combat nausea and lack of appetite from treatments like chemotherapy. These benefits alone justify the use of cannabis or any other substance to relieve suffering.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2161743 15-Jan-2019 19:58
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That study is published by psychiatrists. Like every other topic under the sun you can find evidence of the contrary. At some point you make a call based on the good and the bad.

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  # 2161773 15-Jan-2019 21:09
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gehenna: That study is published by psychiatrists. Like every other topic under the sun you can find evidence of the contrary. At some point you make a call based on the good and the bad.


If this is how you think doctors practise medicine, you should not bother seeing them at all.





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  # 2161774 15-Jan-2019 21:11
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nakedmolerat: 
If this is how you think doctors practise medicine, you should not bother seeing them at all.

 

Given I've been in the hospital system for 28 years, including under the pain management clinic (who are a complete joke btw). I'm comfortable with my contextual knowledge.


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  # 2161775 15-Jan-2019 21:16
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gehenna:

nakedmolerat: 
If this is how you think doctors practise medicine, you should not bother seeing them at all.


Given I've been in the hospital system for 28 years, including under the pain management clinic (who are a complete joke btw). I'm comfortable with my contextual knowledge.



Fair enough, personal experience and belief means nothing. Just like those people who believe that the earth is Flat.





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