School costs

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#2164621 21-Jan-2019 10:58

networkn:

They are designed to be hard wearing clothes that makes everyone look the same for the variety of reasons.

I agree with everything you say about uniforms, It's just if they were made to a better standard and made more available at a better price they would be practical for all.

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xontech

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#2164626 21-Jan-2019 11:11

Sounds like there is a lot of variation as to how schools deal with uniforms. Our kids primary recently relaxed the shoes side of things based on parent feedback.

Also in every comms I've seen from the school about uniforms they say if there is an issue with being able to afford uniform talk to the school and they will come to an arrangement. I know their lost property bins are always overflowing with discarded uniform that probably can be repurposed after no one has claimed it.

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#2164628 21-Jan-2019 11:16

xontech:

Also in every comms I've seen from the school about uniforms they say if there is an issue with being able to afford uniform talk to the school and they will come to an arrangement.one has claimed it.

Yes, I have seen this as well. Our kids school doesn't have a uniform as such but they do have specific items which are required to purchase like sunhats, and there is always a note to that affect any time it's mentioned.

If our school decided to move to school uniforms, I'd support it. Our school is relatively low decile (mt roskill area) so I know a fair few parents would struggle, but there are a number of assistances available to help parents who can't afford them.

Where I think it hits the hardest is the parents who can only JUST afford it, and wouldn't like qualify or feel justified in approaching for assistance.

chimera

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#2164645 21-Jan-2019 11:43

$450 for my eldest boy's uniform (half that on a blazer) starting college. $200+ for new uniform for my daughter as she is now "senior" which has a slightly different uniform and $250 for uniform for my youngest starting intermediate, plus on top add stationary costs for all 3, plus they need devices (daughter has one, but not suitable for this year, eldest son has one, but it's just completed died and out of warranty), I'm going to be out of pocket the best part of ~$4-5k. Plus then school fees (or rather, "donations" which I am MEGA anti against - my wife overrules me and pays it though - perhaps some sort of 'stigma' thing being "that parent" - whereas personally I don't care - I see that I pay enough in taxes, plus on uniforms and stationary) We are lucky that we earn reasonable money so can afford it, but those that don't I have no idea how others on low incomes get by. I get school uniform is a good thing - discipline, removes stigma, identifiable for a particular school (harder to wag!), etc, but the cost is ridiculous. Add to that exorbitant sports fees (fewer volunteers, paid coaches, multiple trips away etc) it adds up to a LOT.

Don't get me wrong, I get there should be a cost involved - but it's HOW much they're charging is what annoys me.

So much for free education.

surfisup1000

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#2164646 21-Jan-2019 11:47

Coil:The Takapuna Grammar uniforms were made of that flannel like business shirt cloth and not durable at all, They had a logo that said SWOT in red or something. After about 6 months of sweat and washing the fabric would degrade and become very easy to tear for an active bloke and the ladies had issues as the shirts did not permit for horizontal growth, Also ending in torn shirts.

6 months is pretty decent mileage though.

My kids wear out their 'civvies' faster than this.

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#2164647 21-Jan-2019 11:52

chimera:

$450 for my eldest boy's uniform (half that on a blazer) starting college. $200+ for new uniform for my daughter as she is now "senior" which has a slightly different uniform and $250 for uniform for my youngest starting intermediate, plus on top add stationary costs for all 3, plus they need devices (daughter has one, but not suitable for this year, eldest son has one, but it's just completed died and out of warranty), I'm going to be out of pocket the best part of ~$4-5k. Plus then school fees (or rather, "donations" which I am MEGA anti against - my wife overrules me and pays it though - perhaps some sort of 'stigma' thing being "that parent" - whereas personally I don't care - I see that I pay enough in taxes, plus on uniforms and stationary) We are lucky that we earn reasonable money so can afford it, but those that don't I have no idea how others on low incomes get by. I get school uniform is a good thing - discipline, removes stigma, identifiable for a particular school (harder to wag!), etc, but the cost is ridiculous. Add to that exorbitant sports fees (fewer volunteers, paid coaches, multiple trips away etc) it adds up to a LOT.

Don't get me wrong, I get there should be a cost involved - but it's HOW much they're charging is what annoys me.

So much for free education.

Send your kid to a private school where all those costs are there, and considerably more too, and you'll realize how cheap education is in the public system. I understand that is a LOT of money, it is, but some of those things should last a few years at least hopefully.

People don't want NZ to have a low wage economy, but they don't realize it's all funded one way or another.

I guess we are fortunate that whilst it does feel uncomfortable sometimes parting with school costs, for us, it's not the difference between food on the table or not.

If everyone didn't pay school fee's then the money would have to come from elsewhere, there is a limited pool of money, either other services would be cut, or taxes would increase, unfortunately, there is no free lunch. (I personally believe the education system is broken for effciiency, but fixing it would cost twice as much at least in the short term, and is massively complex and not at all easy to resolve). There is a LOT of waste in schools I think.

Our school does fundraising almost every Friday and it can be frustrating to have to include $2 each per kid each Friday on top of everything else. We decided this year we would support the school in this, but only do it fortnightly so our kids can choose which particular thing they want twice a month or whatever.

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#2164648 21-Jan-2019 11:52

I know of one school, that has a single uniform, until they get to their final year, and it changes to a different uniform which you have to buy. Thankfully my kids arent going there because that just seems ludicrous.

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networkn

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#2164651 21-Jan-2019 11:56

surfisup1000:

Coil:The Takapuna Grammar uniforms were made of that flannel like business shirt cloth and not durable at all, They had a logo that said SWOT in red or something. After about 6 months of sweat and washing the fabric would degrade and become very easy to tear for an active bloke and the ladies had issues as the shirts did not permit for horizontal growth, Also ending in torn shirts.

6 months is pretty decent mileage though.

My kids wear out their 'civvies' faster than this.

We are really struggling to find good quality shoes for my son who seems to wear through them every few months. We used to buy from No1 shoes but after replacing 6 pairs in 8 weeks, we abandoned that. We went to a name brand shoe and at least we got 3 months out of them.

The kids shoes at No1 and the warehouse, in my experience wouldn't fit any manafacturing standard I could think to devise. My son is an active kid, but nowhere near as much as others who are more sporty. I hate to think what it would cost.

chimera

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#2164657 21-Jan-2019 12:15

networkn:

chimera:

$450 for my eldest boy's uniform (half that on a blazer) starting college. $200+ for new uniform for my daughter as she is now "senior" which has a slightly different uniform and $250 for uniform for my youngest starting intermediate, plus on top add stationary costs for all 3, plus they need devices (daughter has one, but not suitable for this year, eldest son has one, but it's just completed died and out of warranty), I'm going to be out of pocket the best part of ~$4-5k. Plus then school fees (or rather, "donations" which I am MEGA anti against - my wife overrules me and pays it though - perhaps some sort of 'stigma' thing being "that parent" - whereas personally I don't care - I see that I pay enough in taxes, plus on uniforms and stationary) We are lucky that we earn reasonable money so can afford it, but those that don't I have no idea how others on low incomes get by. I get school uniform is a good thing - discipline, removes stigma, identifiable for a particular school (harder to wag!), etc, but the cost is ridiculous. Add to that exorbitant sports fees (fewer volunteers, paid coaches, multiple trips away etc) it adds up to a LOT.

Don't get me wrong, I get there should be a cost involved - but it's HOW much they're charging is what annoys me.

So much for free education.

Send your kid to a private school where all those costs are there, and considerably more too, and you'll realize how cheap education is in the public system. I understand that is a LOT of money, it is, but some of those things should last a few years at least hopefully.

People don't want NZ to have a low wage economy, but they don't realize it's all funded one way or another.

I guess we are fortunate that whilst it does feel uncomfortable sometimes parting with school costs, for us, it's not the difference between food on the table or not.

If everyone didn't pay school fee's then the money would have to come from elsewhere, there is a limited pool of money, either other services would be cut, or taxes would increase, unfortunately, there is no free lunch. (I personally believe the education system is broken for effciiency, but fixing it would cost twice as much at least in the short term, and is massively complex and not at all easy to resolve). There is a LOT of waste in schools I think.

Our school does fundraising almost every Friday and it can be frustrating to have to include $2 each per kid each Friday on top of everything else. We decided this year we would support the school in this, but only do it fortnightly so our kids can choose which particular thing they want twice a month or whatever.

That's a ridiculous argument. You're comparing a private school to a public school. People make a CHOICE whether to send their kid to a private school, everyone else (aka, the majority) don't get to choose - it's the public education system only, education is mandatory (apart from home schooling, but let's not get into that debate)

Agree there is a lot of waste in schools, as there are in DHB's and almost every govt. related agency in NZ. Easy to spend when it's not your own money...

School fundraising I understand - you have a selected few who CHOOSE to spend their time fund raising specifically for their child's requirements (eg: sports events) School donations on the other hand, go into a general slush fund of expenditure. I guarantee the majority of parents have zero idea where their several hundred dollar donation gets spent. Regardless, my point is we pay a significant amount of tax and still get reamed. EVERYTHING is a rip off in this country.

networkn

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#2164658 21-Jan-2019 12:22

The waste in schools isn't really a result of not caring how others money is spent, it's a usual thing for large organizations to be less efficient. The cost of efficiency compliance and regulation isn't cheap either though and produces a difference type of "waste".

School Fund raising at our school at least, are bake sales, and other similar things which fund the school. Sports trips and other things are FR'ed seperately. It's just a weekly attempt to boost the schools revenue.

Our "fund raising" and donations means that our school has a robotics classroom and sports equipment that isn't from the 1970's. I'd rather pay a donation to the school for that, than have my taxes increase.

Private vs Public argument is valid, it costs money to run schools, to run a school with more than the absolute bare minimums costs extra.

HcoNmeM

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#2164659 21-Jan-2019 12:23

Coil:

BlueShift:

The question I always ask is: How does this school uniform improve the students' learning outcomes?

It doesn't, It takes money from the pockets of parents who may need that extra money to make a difference in their childs learning.

Agreed.. I have 2 kids at Intermediate now.. $400 for uniform.. then stationary.. then school trips.. then photocopying bs fee..

Education is soo under funded.. instead of 5G mobile network.. a flag change.. ffs all the other crap our government spend money on.. spend it on our kids..

There's so many kids out there failing.. and they didn't even get a chance..

Coil

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#2164664 21-Jan-2019 12:42

networkn:

The waste in schools isn't really a result of not caring how others money is spent, it's a usual thing for large organizations to be less efficient. The cost of efficiency compliance and regulation isn't cheap either though and produces a difference type of "waste".

School Fund raising at our school at least, are bake sales, and other similar things which fund the school. Sports trips and other things are FR'ed seperately. It's just a weekly attempt to boost the schools revenue.

Our "fund raising" and donations means that our school has a robotics classroom and sports equipment that isn't from the 1970's. I'd rather pay a donation to the school for that, than have my taxes increase.

Private vs Public argument is valid, it costs money to run schools, to run a school with more than the absolute bare minimums costs extra.

I understand your approach and all and generally do agree with you Andre, but the argument is that "education is free in NZ" when it is simply not.
Sure the costs maybe smaller than a private school and more than free but the idea is that it is "Free" and obligatory.

I have been fortunately to have a well off family who could cover everything for me, live in a decile 10 area, provide me 3 meals a day, cloth me and what ever else. I was lucky I got good parents.
Now the whole education system is great for me, I get the best school, best everything, That's because my parents can spare a few thousand extra each year. I completely pissed my education up against a wall and said GTFO to all but that was my own mistake. I had the chance.

Lets now look across the bridge at say a decile 2 school where most of the students parents cannot afford the same things. Sure, we are still in the same public system, but these guys have class rooms from 1970, sports equipment from 1980, 1 meal a day. These guys are on the back foot already, you wonder why gangs are rife, school attendance is shocking and there is a divide between our classes in society.

As you say, it costs money to run schools and educate kids...

chimera

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#2164703 21-Jan-2019 12:55

networkn:

The waste in schools isn't really a result of not caring how others money is spent, it's a usual thing for large organizations to be less efficient. The cost of efficiency compliance and regulation isn't cheap either though and produces a difference type of "waste".

Didn't say the waste was result of the how the money was spent - they are 2 x separate issues. Agreed large organisations are less efficient, often the reason is due to lack of prioritising - and you see regularly where expenditure is done in areas where "people complain the loudest" (and a lot of the loudest are a minority group) Not too different than councils spending $50k on a piece of artwork for a park... when other areas should get higher prioritisation.

networkn:

School Fund raising at our school at least, are bake sales, and other similar things which fund the school. Sports trips and other things are FR'ed seperately. It's just a weekly attempt to boost the schools revenue.

Our "fund raising" and donations means that our school has a robotics classroom and sports equipment that isn't from the 1970's. I'd rather pay a donation to the school for that, than have my taxes increase.

If you have the time to assist doing this EVERY week, then good for you. I'm too busy working and paying tax to contribute towards the rest of the education system.

networkn:

Private vs Public argument is valid, it costs money to run schools, to run a school with more than the absolute bare minimums costs extra.

You are looking at this issue the wrong way around. As I mentioned, parents that send their kids to private schools do so by CHOICE.

The problem really goes all the way back to central govt priorities... now why would the government spend anymore on education when they know that most people pay for school donations in the first place? Of course they won't increase their education spending and get rid of school "donations". It's money for nothing for them, less for them to fork out and spend elsewhere. A school donation is effectively an annual education tax, no more, no less. The choice I make is to take a stand and not pay it. I don't subscribe to the pressure of "compulsory donations" in an education system that should be funded for entirely by the tax I pay (however as mentioned, extra curricular activities outside of my child's basic education I am happy to assist by a cost or extra fund-raising - again, it's about CHOICE)

networkn

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#2164705 21-Jan-2019 12:55

Basic education is free, better education isn't. Donations to the school are not mandatory, if you don't give them your child may not go to the school show, or on field trips, but that isn't any different from financial benefit in any other part of life.

If you genuinely can't afford uniforms, there are options. There isn't really truly any reason kids can't go to school and learn the basics.

I do understand it's challenging, and I am not unsympathetic. I was raised in a household where we couldn't afford *anything* and I am fortunate my kids will not have the same issues to the same degree, but I think people need to be critical appropropriately with things like school fees, uniforms etc. I see people giving away uniforms on neighbourly frequently, or if not free, cheaper than mufti clothes at least. There are options. On principle, once our kids are in uniforms, we will not be selling them, we will give them away to help others. There is plenty of it around.

For example, devices, they are "mandatory" in "device" classrooms at our school, but kids who can't afford it, share the 5 "classroom" devices. They are meeting the education standard still, but missing out on having an indivual device. One kid who is in that situation that my son is friends with from another class, won a bunch of education performance awards end of last year, so it's not essential by any means to have your own device. My daugher isn't in a device class this year, my son is.

Fred99

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#2164710 21-Jan-2019 12:59

surfisup1000:

BlueShift:

this school uniform improve the students' learning outcomes?

A uniform is not about so much about learning, for me it is about making life easier for parents. Not fighting over what to wear each day.

And, I suppose a uniform may convey a schools values to some degree.... ie, that of being orderly, disciplined, and goal oriented. As opposed to schools without uniforms where you might think the kids smoke drugs and doodle all day.

Our son went to a high school where there was no school uniform or dress code.

About 95% of the kids wore "normal" clothes, jeans, sweaters whatever. A few would turn up wearing err "unusual" clothing following some trend, "goth" or whatever at the time which had zero impact as nobody took much notice.

I guess about the same % where there was a dress code/uniform find a way to rebel anyway about dress/hair/jewellery etc codes, and the same % smoke drugs and doodle all day - at least that was the case when I went to high school in Auckland. I don't think schools have improved much - if at all over the past 45 (gulp) years.

Apart from the fund-raising aspect, I think most of the reason for school uniforms is based on notions of breaking the spirit/forcing conformity and a lame attempt by paranoid adults to suppress the impact of adolescent hormones.

My father was DP of a school that had knicker inspections for girls, something he managed to convince the board and principal should be abandoned quick-smart, as girls with offending knickers were sent by their teachers to the DP's office for punishment. The previous DP was a woman.

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