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  # 2246923 28-May-2019 11:58
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networkn:

 

elpenguino:

 

I don't know what to suggest. But what we're dealing with basically is a human problem. If that problem resulted in aircraft crashing into towns or people cutting off your wrong limb by mistake we'd collectively devise a way to do something about it.

 

Because the bank can push the loss onto the customer they can carry on.

 



 

Again, trying not to sound unsympathetic, but how is the bank pushing the loss to the customer? The customer of his own choice transferred money into another persons account.

 

 

I'm not sure exactly how the events transpired.

 

My understanding is that his emails became compromised then he was targeted by phone to enter his bank details into a non-bank website.


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  # 2246927 28-May-2019 12:05
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What advice have the Police given so far? I am of course assuming you have reported it to them since a crime has occured?

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2246969 28-May-2019 12:08
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I am wondering if you have spoken to the bank as yet as well? Police would be a pretty important port of call, they have a quite comphrensive cybercrime department. 

 

 


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  # 2247033 28-May-2019 13:08
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elpenguino:

 

I'm not sure exactly how the events transpired.

 

My understanding is that his emails became compromised then he was targeted by phone to enter his bank details into a non-bank website.

 

 

Right, but to the bank it would look like a normal every day transaction. He has entered the details into the fake website, they have lifted them, put them into the real website and transferred the funds. 

 

At best with 2 Factor Authentication that someone like ASB does, he may have got a text with a code they needed to transfer.

 

I am actually a little surprised there isn't something like this by default.

 

 


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  # 2247071 28-May-2019 14:12
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networkn:

 

Aredwood: They could use a system like what ASB have. You get sent a text message asking you to confirm the payment. It has the payment amount and a 1 time code in the message as well. You have to type the 1 time code into the Internet banking payment confirmation page to approve the payment.

This alone makes a scam far more difficult. As the scammers need to convince someone that a payment is necessary, and that a large payment is also neccessary. Instead of only obtaining login details.

 

If he was prepared to give his login and password, and felt it was a legitimate transfer, the extra step would have been approved. Potentially, had a staff member of called him, they might have warned him and he might have managed to walk away from it, but honestly, that's not a 100% guarantee. 

 

It's an unfortunate situation, but really, the only real protection is education, and even then, it's not always effective. 

 

I have had very intelligent and usually security conscious customers scammed of large sums from a moment's inattention. 

 

 

 

 

One way  to potentially protect elderly, is not allow them to withdraw more than a certain amount of money, unless approval of another family member first. My parents did that for their parents.  Especially if people feel their elderly parents may not be as onto it as they once were. We have to remember that these scams are relatively new, and are easier for scammers due to the newer technologies that banks use, and elderly may not be used to these newer technologies. Sure, they may make banking easier and ore convenient to most, but the downside is that scammers can easily work out ways to use this convenient system against customers. Also some form of digital token, where the token is needed to be entered before any withdrawal takes place.


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  # 2247074 28-May-2019 14:16
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I think you'd find the majority of elderly would take to that like a cup of cold sick. Most have to be forcibly stopped from driving, even though they aren't safe, so taking away control of their money would be even worse.

 

It's warranted in situations where the person isn't capable of making their own decisions, however, I feel a fair number of elderly are ok most of the time and just need a bit of education.

 

 


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  # 2247090 28-May-2019 14:32
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networkn:

 

I think you'd find the majority of elderly would take to that like a cup of cold sick. Most have to be forcibly stopped from driving, even though they aren't safe, so taking away control of their money would be even worse.

 

It's warranted in situations where the person isn't capable of making their own decisions, however, I feel a fair number of elderly are ok most of the time and just need a bit of education.

 

 

 

 

True. The problem is that many get to a point where they cease embracing new technology. You can often see it in a house, where the new technology stops. eg Those with a VCR or DVD player. Some still with a CRT a freeview STB. Then those that have got a PC sitting in the corner of the room from the 1990's. The alternative is for aging parents to potentially fall victims to them scam calls, and losing all that money they spent years saving for retirement. IMO banks should be able to do something to stop suspicious withdrawals. IMO telcos could also do more to stop them, and make sure that automated dialers aren't the ones making the incoming calls, by requiring a capcha system on  incoming calls. I am sure most landline calls I now get are scam calls, or cold callers, and more seem to be calling my mobile too. But then email scams can also be quite convincing these days, especially some I have seen this year. 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2247099 28-May-2019 14:39
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I agree, but it's a dangerous slope to head down, making assumptions about people based on age. Even under the guise of protecting them from themselves. I work in IT and I see every day how convincing these things are. It scares me, and even with the amount of money taken from people, I don't think you'd be able to make a rule that applies to people over or under a certain age.

 

Kids need to keep an eye on their parents as they age, keep them abreast of these scams as best they can and for those who have no-one to look after, then perhaps  a national advertising campaign to help people be aware is a reasonable idea. 

 

 

 

We won't ever be able to stop 100% of these things, it's really unfortunate and honestly, old people being preyed on makes me rage and breaks my heart at the same time. 

 

We need to stay connected to our elders for many reasons and this is just one of them.

 

 




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  # 2248707 30-May-2019 19:57
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Well, it appears the bank has been able to 'do something' and my old man's getting his money back.

 

Was it money returned or compensation - I don't know yet.

 

I don't know the details and i'm not sure how much detail I'll get from him about the actual attack vector.




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  # 2248709 30-May-2019 20:03
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networkn:

 

elpenguino:

 

I don't know what to suggest. But what we're dealing with basically is a human problem. If that problem resulted in aircraft crashing into towns or people cutting off your wrong limb by mistake we'd collectively devise a way to do something about it.

 

Because the bank can push the loss onto the customer they can carry on.

 



 

To prevent aircraft falling out of the sky due to *pilot* error, pilots are required to spend *many* hours training. A relatively small amount of training by comparison may well have avoided this unfortunate situation. It's obviously easy to say in hindsight. 

 

 

There's a lot more to keeping planes in the sky than training pilots - ask anybody who watches mayday.

 

Everytime there's a crash or a near-miss, people look at the events that led to the incident and change the way the things are done to prevent it happening again. 

 

As you know, the idea is that it should be very hard to have a crash because all the little things that lead to one are not allowed to happen.

 

The same thing needs to happen with online banking.

 

Whether that's through 2, 3 or xFA , I dunno.

 

Anyhoo, thanks for your thoughts @networkn and everyone.


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  # 2248715 30-May-2019 20:18
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elpenguino:

 

Well, it appears the bank has been able to 'do something' and my old man's getting his money back.

 

Was it money returned or compensation - I don't know yet.

 

I don't know the details and i'm not sure how much detail I'll get from him about the actual attack vector.

 

 

I don't agree with compensation - it's most likely not the banks fault and they do do a lot to stop these scammers. Hopefully though they may offer a goodwill gesture if they are unsuccessful but are under no obligation to do so. 

 

Scammed funds are usually traceable - to a point. Overseas scammers need to get those funds overseas somehow and can't open a bank account themselves so have to use some unsuspecting mule (work from home, we deposit funds into your account and you forward them on and keep a percentage!). The mule either sends an international money transfer or uses a third party like Western Union to send it overseas. Occassionally they will even buy up itunes cards with the money and send the codes to the scammer. The mules don't know they are being used in a scam.

 

Banks do have sophisticated detection systems and can pick up mule accounts and freeze them before all the funds are gone or another bank may notify them of the account when investigating occurances such as your fathers. With luck, the mule account may have already been frozen when your fathers funds were transferred so the $13k is just sitting there waiting to be returned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 2248716 30-May-2019 20:25
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elpenguino:

 

The same thing needs to happen with online banking.

 

Whether that's through 2, 3 or xFA , I dunno.

 

 

Have to balance security with convenience though. 

 

I had an account with rabobank and they used a little calculator security device which generates a pin - a real PITA. These days these token devices can be replaced with an app on your phone which is better but still not as convenient as logging in using my fingerprint on my phone.

 

I had an app on my phone that allowed me access to my work emails and calender. The password had to be changed every 30 days, had to be 10+ characters long, include a mixture of caps and lower case, no previous passwords were allowed, couldn't use even parts of previous passwords (so no April0001, April0002), had to include a symbol (&^%$#@!*), two numbers could not be in sequence (so Ap$Iluio12 was not allowed). I never logged in.


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  # 2248799 30-May-2019 22:19
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@elpenguino how old is your father? just wondering if hes quite elderly maybe it could be time to consider power of attorney over his bank account 

 

 

 

also, good thing about westpac.. I forget what the threshold is but once that threshold is hit the money sits in a holding account for xxx days before its actually released which makes recovery all that much easier.

 

My understanding it also needs to be a lump sum payment whereas multiple transfers is what will trigger something on their radar




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  # 2248801 30-May-2019 22:24
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Funny you should mention that as we've just set that up  - he's almost 80 and on his own now.


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  # 2248804 30-May-2019 22:40
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elpenguino:

 

Funny you should mention that as we've just set that up  - he's almost 80 and on his own now.

 

 

 

 

Awesome, that's a good start and great to hear he'll be getting something back.. at least with POA you'll be able to get some visibility with whats going on without interfering with his day to day purchases - setup westpac cashnav mobile app, its awesome for notifications.  

 

 

 

The most important thing out of this though at his age its crucial you let him know that sh*t happens and it wasn't his fault and not to beat himself up over it.

 

Elderly don't recover from these type of mental blows very well and it can eat them up effecting their health so best to nip it in the bud as soon as you can 

 

Might be a good time for some new trains :) 

 

 


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