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415 posts

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  #2253576 7-Jun-2019 09:12
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Teachers probably have more performance assessment than most other professions. They need to retain their registration which involves being of sound character and showing evidence of their teaching work being up to standard. A school can easily remove a teacher who is not good enough by not signing off on that part. Naturally that involves the school having evidence of assessment usually by department heads and the principle. Improvement plans laid out for those who need it etc. From what I have seen in recent years is some schools are reluctant to pull the trigger on the registration on poorly performing teachers as they know they will have a very hard time filling the position when they are already short staffed. It seems more and more time is spent on improvement plans and teachers getting conditional sign-off on registration.

 

 

 

If you want the best candidates to become teachers you need to make the profession attractive to the best candidates.


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  #2253615 7-Jun-2019 10:13
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Initiating a conduct and competence review by not signing off on a teacher is not as "easily" done as you make it sound:

 

  • Suspending a teacher's registration is drastic so there is some reluctance to commit to even the earlier steps of this approach.
  • It is much easier to get action on ethical or legal issues, i.e. easier to push out a "bad" person rather than a "bad" teacher. The standard of proof for such accusations are much less onerous and might only require one event.
  • It appears to be much harder to go through the process to sack a "bad" teacher who has many performance shortfalls.
  • Principals probably put up with such "bad" teachers because they just don't want to dedicate time and energy to getting rid of them. It is hard to commit to many cycles of some improved performance later undone by new issues or old issues reappearing. The teacher can make a small improvement but never commit to the level of positive improvement desired by the school. So it certainly helps to have animus towards the teacher - a bit of spite can be quite energising.
  • Maybe it is easier in primary schools but I've heard of poorly-performing, secondary-school teachers receiving strong support from the PPTA. Principals have to choose their battles so they may decide the likely return is too low for such a lot of effort.

 
 
 
 


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  #2253621 7-Jun-2019 10:22
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In unrelated news, the strikes have been called off amidst talks between Hipkins and the Union. It appears its more about future issues, I assume this refers to we can talk next year rather than here is a raise, see you in 10 years


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  #2253625 7-Jun-2019 10:32
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Hammerer:

 

Initiating a conduct and competence review by not signing off on a teacher is not as "easily" done as you make it sound:

 

 

It won't be easy. Teachers are almost guaranteed their job unless they commit a crime. 

 

There are good and bad teachers at the local primary school . The bad teachers never seem to leave . Although, the majority of the teachers are really good at their job. 

 

I like newly trained teachers , as they are always full of enthusiasm and this is reflected in the kids. 

 

 


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  #2253784 7-Jun-2019 13:20
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surfisup1000:

 

I like newly trained teachers , as they are always full of enthusiasm and this is reflected in the kids. 

 

 

These are the ones who appear to be at most risk of leaving I think. 


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  #2253826 7-Jun-2019 13:30
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We used to have a teacher who would spend the entire class just writing up notes on the board for us to copy down in writing. Then after he had down that he would go into his office and we would just hang out in class talking. So not really any teaching involved at all. He was seen as a good teacher as he was very personable, but he was one of those that had been there forever. It is quite interesting visiting past school websites and seeing which teachers are still there. There are a few that are still there a good 20 years later. 

 

Do kids still copy down notes these days or is it all done on computers? The one thing copying notes did was it made you a good or at least fast writer. I suspect many kids these days aren't very good at writing because they don't get the practice.


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  #2253832 7-Jun-2019 13:36
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mattwnz:

 

We used to have a teacher who would spend the entire class just writing up notes on the board for us to copy down in writing. Then after he had down that he would go into his office and we would just hang out in class talking. So not really any teaching involved at all. He was seen as a good teacher as he was very personable, but he was one of those that had been there forever. It is quite interesting visiting past school websites and seeing which teachers are still there. There are a few that are still there a good 20 years later. 

 

Do kids still copy down notes these days or is it all done on computers? The one thing copying notes did was it made you a good or at least fast writer. I suspect many kids these days aren't very good at writing because they do't get the practice.

 

 

That was my Physics class at school


 
 
 
 


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  #2253850 7-Jun-2019 14:03
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See this video report from RNZ on the modern classroom:

 


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  #2253985 7-Jun-2019 17:36
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surfisup1000:

Hammerer:


Initiating a conduct and competence review by not signing off on a teacher is not as "easily" done as you make it sound:



It won't be easy. Teachers are almost guaranteed their job unless they commit a crime. 


There are good and bad teachers at the local primary school . The bad teachers never seem to leave . Although, the majority of the teachers are really good at their job. 


I like newly trained teachers , as they are always full of enthusiasm and this is reflected in the kids. 


 



It really comes down to the principal whether bad teachers leave. They can make a teacher's life very uncomfortable. Most teachers that are performance managed seem to leave.

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  #2253988 7-Jun-2019 17:40
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Hammerer:

Handle9: Why do you think there is no performance assessment process or performance management in teaching? From what I have seen from my wife's performance assessments there is a fairly rigorous process which is at least as effective as corporate performance assessment.

Teachers are like any other populations, there is a bell curve of performance with the vast majority being from a bit below average to a bit above average. There are some horrible teachers and some great teachers. This is also the same across almost every professional group including engineers, it guys and doctors.


Or were you replying to a post further back than the previous reply? From reading @JimmyH's comments, I can't see that he's saying there's no assessment or management. He's primarily saying that it needs to be properly linked to pay as with the text I've bolded below.


JimmyH:


Personally, I support higher average pay for teachers. But the quid pro quo has to be proper performance assessment, management and pay. The good ones should get a lot more. The poor performers should be paid less and, if they don't improve, shown the door. Also, those with qualifications in high demand and shortage (Science, Maths with good degrees) should be paid more than in other areas where the market is awash with candidates (eg mediocre arts degrees in subjects with no market demand).


The unions seem to value solidarity and protecting poor performers much more than they do helping strong performers get their due or the children. I know two teachers who have resigned from the union for this reason.



 



The quote suggested that there wasn't proper performance assessment or management. That generally isn't the case.


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  #2254227 8-Jun-2019 11:28
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You'd think the gun/intruder one isn't us, but the growing number of lockdown drills in schools shows that at least if the event itself is unlikely, preparing for it is not.  


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