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  # 2247571 29-May-2019 10:00
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gehenna:

 

My wife works 10x harder than I do, and I get paid more than 2-3x as much.  She worked 65 hours last week.  The last 3 months have been hovering between 50-60 hours every day since she's been running things like school production, tutor groups, moderation, assessment feedback, and working on reports most evenings when she gets home. Plus at least 10 hours over the weekend.  At least.  

 

She's basically on-call 24/7 and a lot of her role is relationship management with parents. She's already reached the top of where her salary can go, there's no way she can get more money without taking on more responsibility (e.g. management units).  That means her top end is around the entry salary for an infrastructure engineer.  

 

She takes emails and txts from students from 3:30pm to midnight every day/night and all through weekends.  She's a counselor, a tutor, a mentor, and she's got to somehow process the emotions of 100+ teenagers while keeping herself sane, and on top of all her other commitments.....and still be able to have a life with me.  

 

She doesn't get annual leave, the school holidays are about 3 days of non-stop sleep at the beginning, followed by another week of having a cold or flu that she's been fighting off all term and finally got through because she let her guard down.  Then a week or two of catching up on work and planning for the next term. 

 

Going away is difficult since school holiday travel is peak prices everywhere.  Plus any time we do go away we inevitablly hear "Hello Miss" from a student who is holidaying at the same place as us.  Sick leave during term is a difficult to manage because she has to spend time creating relief for someone else to do if she's away, so more often than not it's easier just to keep working.  

 

She's also WAY more qualified than I am.  She has a conjoint degree and a teaching degree that took 4 years to complete in total.  She has to pay to be registered in order to teach, and she has to prove self-learning and continuous personal development to remain registered.  All I ever have to do to get a job is quote some acronyms.  

 

In my opinion, seeing what she does every single day (weekends and "holidays" included), she deserves at least as much as I'm paid in the corporate world, preferably much more.  I'm writing this while I work from home in my armchair while watching a YouTube video of someone playing Dead Space in 4K while she's probably done about 50 things already today, and when I'm playing another couple of hours of my latest fun game at 9pm tonight she'll still be working.

 

Anyone who thinks teachers have it easy and don't deserve our utmost respect and gratitude, and don't deserve ALL THE MONEY, can all get fired into the sun.  If that's you, you're a blight on our society.  

 

 

 

The most obvious question is why doesn't she resign and do what you do? She'll get to work a tenth of the amount and earn 3 times as much. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

 

 

Mod Edit MM: Updating quote to reflect edits to original post. 


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  # 2247574 29-May-2019 10:03
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Except by waiting for market forces to kick in you have a generation of teachers displaying borderline PTSD symptoms and a generation of students with poorer education to and end result where you end up still paying more from taxes to fund education.

 

 

 

Medical/Education/Security and a few others I'm sure i've forgotten are all things where the rules of business don't apply. Not everything in life is a business





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

 
 
 
 


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  # 2247578 29-May-2019 10:06
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Geektastic:

 

I came here from a country were booking 3 weeks ahead to see the doctor was not at all unusual - although in return, it was free of charge.

 

It's fine that teachers change career. Everyone can do so. Eventually, if there are not enough teachers available, the market will correct that by forcing the government to deal with it. There are a number of ways of dealing with it, in the same manner that two of the doctors from our local practice are not from NZ. Neither was the surgeon who operated on me last. 

 

It's not fine to demand heaps more cash from people who have to work to earn that cash and disrupt the education of the pupils as a form of blackmail to get it.

 

 

You avoided the doctor question

 

We are at the point of the Govt dealing with it, so you advocate immigrating teachers? The problem of pay and conditions still exists though. Do we bring in teachers from third world countries as they may feel the pay and conditions are good? Bunnings and The Warehouse do that, but that's just goods, not people.


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  # 2247579 29-May-2019 10:06
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Geektastic:

 

It's fine that teachers change career. Everyone can do so. Eventually, if there are not enough teachers available, the market will correct that by forcing the government to deal with it. There are a number of ways of dealing with it, in the same manner that two of the doctors from our local practice are not from NZ. Neither was the surgeon who operated on me last. 

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what's happening right now. There is a teacher shortage and the Government will be forced to deal with it.  About time too.


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  # 2247582 29-May-2019 10:08
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Geektastic:

 

I do not approve of strikes. Neither do I approve of public servants demanding more taxes be used to pay them more. If they do not like what they are being paid, they are welcome to resign and go elsewhere or change career.

 

 

They don't have anywhere else to go. A change of career for an experienced teacher would result in a huge loss for the teacher, and an even bigger loss for the school's pupils. It's really annoying that it takes a strike to make an employer realise how valuable their people actually are.

 

 

There is no free money to hand over - we will all have to pay more in tax and that, of course, includes the people who are demanding they be paid more.

 

 

I'd have some sympathy with this if we *all* paid tax, let alone our fair share of tax.

 

 

Even more irritating is the fact that the people with the children who need the education are paying less tax than the people without children in many cases because they get child-related tax breaks.

 

On a user pays basis, surely those with children should pay an additional percentage of tax to help cover the costs that their choice incurred rather than get a tax discount. If they support paying teachers more, then surely they will be fine about contributing.

 

 

There is a public good in having an educated workforce, and in having the best educated workforce possible. User-pays is a nonsense for education, because the users are the children, *not* their parents. We *don't* want parent-pays education either, because that would result in many intelligent and talented children not getting the education they deserve, and therefore underachieving for their entire lives.

 

 


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  # 2247608 29-May-2019 10:30
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eracode:

 

Yeah but what about performance evaluation and pay for performance? I don't know a lot about all this but my understanding is these do not exist and that they cannot be implemented because of the union. Poor teachers get paid as much as great ones and poor teachers can't be got rid of?

 

 

The difficulty is in how you measure the performance of a teacher. The unions quite rightly resist any simplistic scheme. I'd be interested in your proposal of how to go about this.

 

You may not see the results of a good teacher until 20-odd years later, at which point they'll be mingled with the outcomes of a dozen other teachers and the effects of a bunch of random life events. How are you going to compare Christchurch teachers pre/post earthquake against teachers elsewhere in NZ? It's better to ensure that the system only produces good teachers.

 

Measuring teachers' performance by e.g. exam results of their students is a blunt instrument... about as bad as measuring students' abilities that way. Exams just lead to teachers training students to pass an exam rather than educating them. A teacher who improves the lot of struggling students is just as valuable as a teacher who extends high-performing students. Measuring teachers' performance based on student or parent reviews turns teaching into a popularity contest.

 

 


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  # 2247613 29-May-2019 10:37
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@gehenna I absolutely "think teachers don't have it easy and do deserve our utmost respect and gratitude, and do deserve ALL THE MONEY" and I'm on their side. But what you haven't said about your wife is:

 

- does she enjoy the job despite the hardships you outlined? 

 

- does she want to leave and do something else with fewer hours and more money?

 

- could she leave and earn more in a non-teaching job?

 

i.e. is her job a life-style choice?

 

My wife is a retired cardio/heart transplant nurse who saved or prolonged many more peoples' lives than I ever did as a banker - yet I earned a lot more than she did (even though she was pretty well-paid). It's almost a truism that great nurses are born, not made, and are never in it for the money. I think all that applies equally to great teachers.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2247614 29-May-2019 10:37
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Geektastic:

 

The most obvious question is why doesn't she resign and do what you do? She'll get to work a tenth of the amount and earn 3 times as much. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

 

Because she loves the kids.

 

This isn't unique to my wife.  If everyone did as you think is a no-brainer, we'd have no teachers left.  


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  # 2247617 29-May-2019 10:40
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eracode:

 

i.e. is her job a life-style choice?

 

 

Given she hardly has a life outside of work, I'd say no.  

 

Whether she enjoys it depends on the day, but she gets a lot out of seeing her students grow and succeed.  Personally I want her to quit and move to corporate. 


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  # 2247624 29-May-2019 10:49
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gehenna:

 

Geektastic:

 

The most obvious question is why doesn't she resign and do what you do? She'll get to work a tenth of the amount and earn 3 times as much. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

 

Because she loves the kids.

 

This isn't unique to my wife.  If everyone did as you think is a no-brainer, we'd have no teachers left.  

 

 

 

 

As I said above "born - not made". She sounds great.


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  # 2247627 29-May-2019 10:51
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It's not fine to demand heaps more cash from people who have to work to earn that cash and disrupt the education of the pupils as a form of blackmail to get it.

 

The argument to not paying tax of "but I worked hard for my money" has to be the most annoying come back seen from the right.

 

No one else works as hard as you? The guys shifting tons and tons of stock in a store room, pulling 12 hour shifts, don't 'work as hard' as say an accountant or lawyer sitting in their office?! Biggest fallacy ever.


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  # 2247631 29-May-2019 10:58
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Geektastic:

 

It's fine that teachers change career. Everyone can do so. Eventually, if there are not enough teachers available, the market will correct that by forcing the government to deal with it.

 

 

 

What do you think a strike is? It is the workers downing tools and forcing the correction. Strikes as part of negotiation are one of the market forces which drive change.


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  # 2247633 29-May-2019 11:01
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gehenna:

 

Geektastic:

 

The most obvious question is why doesn't she resign and do what you do? She'll get to work a tenth of the amount and earn 3 times as much. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

 

Because she loves the kids.

 

This isn't unique to my wife.  If everyone did as you think is a no-brainer, we'd have no teachers left.  

 

 

This dedication isnt restricted to teachers. Most public professions have many many staff that work endless hours without extra pay and do so because they care. When I was in the public service I averaged 60 plus hours per week because I also cared.

 

What I am saying, is that teachers should take the average $10k/annum pay rise and say they have done well this pay round. Next pay round they can ask for the same again if they desire. 

 

The offer is  excellent from what is a very limited pot of money and to continue industrial action affecting so many people is greedy. An extra $1.3billion is a lot and to want more is probably impossible from the pool without affecting other services like Police and Health.


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  # 2247635 29-May-2019 11:03
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I understand why they're striking but I don't support what they're doing. The situation around teaching, as it currently exists, has been in the making at least since the Ministry of Education assued an advisory to the National government back in 2013 that teacher shortages were a looming problem. That government (along with, health, mental health, housing/homelessness) did precisely nothing about it.

 

There's a few givens to take into consideration here:
- this situation has taken a number of years to develop
- teachers take several years to get through the training system
- overseas trained teachers have a *lot* of expensive hoops to jump through to get registered
- NZ trained and registered teachers who go overseas for more than a proscribed period lose their registration
  * further education delivery in many countries is not recognised by our ministry
  * to become re-registered they have the same hoops to jump through as the overseas trained teachers

 

A former teacher I know taught at an ex-pat school in UAE for about 8 years and relayed to me all the issues and costs it was going to take her to get re-registered, along with the lack of recognition of her last 8 years work, so she simply didn't bother.

 

With all of this, what do the teachers think they're going to achieve by striking?

 

The current government has offered them far more money than they've seen in a long time and said "come back for more next year, and the year after" etc. It's a reasonable step in the right direction - throwing a truckload more money at them right now isn't going to solve anything. I just don't see the sense in the argument they're trying to put forward "it's not about the money it's about reducing class sizes" and so on, because the delays in the system will still exist. What might be better is a radical restructure of the way the Ministry operates and the many obstacles they put in the way of people who want to become teachers. Maybe introduce things like special subsidies (of decent proportions) for those going into teachers training college; wipe their student loans on successful graduation and after 5 years placement.


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  # 2247645 29-May-2019 11:21
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Bluntj:

 

This dedication isnt restricted to teachers. Most public professions have many many staff that work endless hours without extra pay and do so because they care. When I was in the public service I averaged 60 plus hours per week because I also cared.

 

What I am saying, is that teachers should take the average $10k/annum pay rise and say they have done well this pay round. Next pay round they can ask for the same again if they desire. 

 

The offer is  excellent from what is a very limited pot of money and to continue industrial action affecting so many people is greedy. An extra $1.3billion is a lot and to want more is probably impossible from the pool without affecting other services like Police and Health.

 

 

This - EXACTLY.

 

The government has already said they are open to negotiation again next year.





Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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