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  # 2248231 30-May-2019 09:39
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Listening to talkback yesterday, I got the feeling that the bigger issue is classroom conditions rather than pay (though, who is going to turn away more money?).

 

Stories of teachers being verbally and physically abused by children - you wouldn't put up with that in a $50,000 per annum corporate job (or even a retail or hospo job for less pay).

 

I couldn't be a teacher, no matter the money. I'd lose my patience. Kudos to those who can, and I hope the conditions improve.


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  # 2248237 30-May-2019 09:58
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mudguard:

 

The tricky part with performance ....

 

 

I find the performance thing dangerous.  What happens if you're assessed against number of passing students, but you just have a completely boneheaded kid in your class.  How does one assess boneheadedness?  The teacher can put in all the exceptional effort in the world but the kid is still not getting anywhere.  Maybe they're smart kids but lazy, plenty of them around too (I was one, and I turned into a smart lazy adult).  Why should that teacher be penalised because of a lazy/dumb student?  How do you assess the difference between a dumb or lazy kid vs a poor performing teacher?  The variables are far too great for the performance approach to work.  


 
 
 
 


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  # 2248248 30-May-2019 10:13
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Pretty much, Performance pay can only work when you've solved the issues of kids coming to school hungry/sick/distracted/mentally unwell. Those are all things outside the Teachers job that will directly impact any metric you can use to determine their "performance"





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All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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  # 2248249 30-May-2019 10:16
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gehenna:

 

mudguard:

 

The tricky part with performance ....

 

 

I find the performance thing dangerous.  What happens if you're assessed against number of passing students, but you just have a completely boneheaded kid in your class.  How does one assess boneheadedness?  The teacher can put in all the exceptional effort in the world but the kid is still not getting anywhere.  Maybe they're smart kids but lazy, plenty of them around too (I was one, and I turned into a smart lazy adult).  Why should that teacher be penalised because of a lazy/dumb student?  How do you assess the difference between a dumb or lazy kid vs a poor performing teacher?  The variables are far too great for the performance approach to work.  

 

 

Im always curious about parents and children, when I was in Highschool and my Dad found out I was failing he would ask the teacher what the problem was, was I struggling with the material, was there anything he could do to push me along. The teacher replied that I was a good student however I was easily distracted, talked during lessons with friends and didn't pay attention. I tell you, my dad was not happy, had my tv taken away, minimal time on the pc to play games until I would pull my head in and up my grades. My dad saw it was me that was failing and not the teacher. Taking my pc away made me put my head in books and at least get up to a C to pass so I could play games again. 

 

I have had Friends and family who are teaching at different levels tell me that parents start screaming at them as to why the children are failing, they have said they are distracted, defiant, sometimes abusive verbally. Parents seem to blame the teachers for responsibilities that they need to own up to themselves. I feel sorry for a lot of these teachers. We want a good education for our children but like to poop all over the teachers for our own failings.

 

 





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  # 2248250 30-May-2019 10:16
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Haha i didn't even consider the kids with legitimate social issues that underperform.  My brain when straight to "what if the kid is stupid" LOL 

 

That sums me up brilliantly :)


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  # 2248299 30-May-2019 10:26
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Beccara:

 

Pretty much, Performance pay can only work when you've solved the issues of kids coming to school hungry/sick/distracted/mentally unwell. Those are all things outside the Teachers job that will directly impact any metric you can use to determine their "performance"

 

 

nevermind hungry kids, I heard that some kids don't live in a proper house!





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.




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  # 2248302 30-May-2019 10:28
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trig42:

 

Listening to talkback yesterday, I got the feeling that the bigger issue is classroom conditions rather than pay (though, who is going to turn away more money?).

 

Stories of teachers being verbally and physically abused by children - you wouldn't put up with that in a $50,000 per annum corporate job (or even a retail or hospo job for less pay).

 

I couldn't be a teacher, no matter the money. I'd lose my patience. Kudos to those who can, and I hope the conditions improve.

 

 

When I taught public I was assaulted in the classroom, punched, kicked and thrown into a white board (this was in my second year of teaching).  His classmates jumped on him and wrestled him to the floor.  He fought them off went out side and smashed some windows.  He was stood down for a couple of weeks, but because he was 13 and no other school would take him he was back to school after that.  It took another teacher assault, a couple of student assaults and then trying to burn down the caretakers shed that the school could get him placed in a residential school.

 

By my third year of teaching I taught 6 classes of students ranging in size from 30 to 37 (a year 12 bio class with 37 students, we only had 35 chairs.  On the two occasions that we had full attendance I had to borrow chairs from next door).  Also had a form class of 30 students, a co-curricular (I ended up with two as I also did the duke of ed badge).  I also ended up on the Health and safety committee and the ILT committee.  Then you have duty, meetings, lesson prep, moderation meetings, professional development and marking. 

 

Workload is a massive issue and it is only getting greater.    


 
 
 
 




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  # 2248305 30-May-2019 10:31
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Lyderies:

 

gehenna:

 

mudguard:

 

The tricky part with performance ....

 

 

I find the performance thing dangerous.  What happens if you're assessed against number of passing students, but you just have a completely boneheaded kid in your class.  How does one assess boneheadedness?  The teacher can put in all the exceptional effort in the world but the kid is still not getting anywhere.  Maybe they're smart kids but lazy, plenty of them around too (I was one, and I turned into a smart lazy adult).  Why should that teacher be penalised because of a lazy/dumb student?  How do you assess the difference between a dumb or lazy kid vs a poor performing teacher?  The variables are far too great for the performance approach to work.  

 

 

Im always curious about parents and children, when I was in Highschool and my Dad found out I was failing he would ask the teacher what the problem was, was I struggling with the material, was there anything he could do to push me along. The teacher replied that I was a good student however I was easily distracted, talked during lessons with friends and didn't pay attention. I tell you, my dad was not happy, had my tv taken away, minimal time on the pc to play games until I would pull my head in and up my grades. My dad saw it was me that was failing and not the teacher. Taking my pc away made me put my head in books and at least get up to a C to pass so I could play games again. 

 

I have had Friends and family who are teaching at different levels tell me that parents start screaming at them as to why the children are failing, they have said they are distracted, defiant, sometimes abusive verbally. Parents seem to blame the teachers for responsibilities that they need to own up to themselves. I feel sorry for a lot of these teachers. We want a good education for our children but like to poop all over the teachers for our own failings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had a dad at a parent teacher interview right at the start tell me

 

Don't worry about my son, if he does anything out of line let me know straight away and I will beat him, he will never do it again, he is a good kid.  This was said in front of him.  

 

No way was I going to report anything to the dad.


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  # 2248315 30-May-2019 10:55
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I hope that the teachers get a better deal than what is offered. They're not the only group to miss out because of government neglect (e.g. nurses, caregivers, ...) but they do have an opportunity to get something now. I support them pressing hard for whatever they can get.

 

The current government promised many things so the current government could win the last election. Now they're prevaricating on meeting the expectations they created. The saying is "hoist by his own petard" because the government is being blown up by a bomb they created.

 

I haven't seen the stats about salary relativities between teachers and members of parliament. But I'm certain that MPs' salaries have been increasing a lot faster.

 

Our society is increasingly dependent upon schools as the primary community centre for social support of families. Personally, I'd link the value of MP salaries and benefit packages to something like the average adult income. If wages and salaries drop in real terms then MPs should not get any increase.

 

 

 

blackjack17:

 

tdgeek:

 

I assume so. Its not easy to get a new job at a better school as most schools are Government run

 

 

I can assure you schools are not run by the government.  They are run by a board who employs a principal to take care of the day to day stuff.  There are good schools to work for and bad schools to work for and it isn't just the students.  Working for bad managers makes for a poor work environment regardless of the clients (students).

 

 

Schools are managed by "the state" rather than "the government" which is the executive body for the state.

 

In New Zealand, state schools and state-integrated schools are managed by a partnership between the state and the school executive bodies (which includes state-school boards of trustees).

 

 


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  # 2248320 30-May-2019 11:03
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blackjack17:

 

trig42:

 

Listening to talkback yesterday, I got the feeling that the bigger issue is classroom conditions rather than pay (though, who is going to turn away more money?).

 

Stories of teachers being verbally and physically abused by children - you wouldn't put up with that in a $50,000 per annum corporate job (or even a retail or hospo job for less pay).

 

I couldn't be a teacher, no matter the money. I'd lose my patience. Kudos to those who can, and I hope the conditions improve.

 

 

When I taught public I was assaulted in the classroom, punched, kicked and thrown into a white board (this was in my second year of teaching).  His classmates jumped on him and wrestled him to the floor.  He fought them off went out side and smashed some windows.  He was stood down for a couple of weeks, but because he was 13 and no other school would take him he was back to school after that.  It took another teacher assault, a couple of student assaults and then trying to burn down the caretakers shed that the school could get him placed in a residential school.

 

By my third year of teaching I taught 6 classes of students ranging in size from 30 to 37 (a year 12 bio class with 37 students, we only had 35 chairs.  On the two occasions that we had full attendance I had to borrow chairs from next door).  Also had a form class of 30 students, a co-curricular (I ended up with two as I also did the duke of ed badge).  I also ended up on the Health and safety committee and the ILT committee.  Then you have duty, meetings, lesson prep, moderation meetings, professional development and marking. 

 

Workload is a massive issue and it is only getting greater.    

 

 

Yes teachers are not in school to teach but to deal with all the social issues, or rather lack of proper parenting, but without the ability to act or discipline.





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  # 2248324 30-May-2019 11:09
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Hammerer:

 

I hope that the teachers get a better deal than what is offered. They're not the only group to miss out because of government neglect (e.g. nurses, caregivers, ...) but they do have an opportunity to get something now. I support them pressing hard for whatever they can get.

 

The current government promised many things so the current government could win the last election. Now they're prevaricating on meeting the expectations they created. The saying is "hoist by his own petard" because the government is being blown up by a bomb they created.

 

I haven't seen the stats about salary relativities between teachers and members of parliament. But I'm certain that MPs' salaries have been increasing a lot faster.

 

Our society is increasingly dependent upon schools as the primary community centre for social support of families. Personally, I'd link the value of MP salaries and benefit packages to something like the average adult income. If wages and salaries drop in real terms then MPs should not get any increase.

 

 

 

 

Remember, this issue wasn't created in Nov 2016, its built up over many years. This Govt will try to fix what it hasn't created. If these longer standing issues are all fixed in one year, thats a HUGE cost. Many years of short funding delivered in one year is a tough call. And while many will want this change right now, if its stops other funding then they won't. It will take time, I dont see how that can be avoided


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  # 2248326 30-May-2019 11:12
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Govts create problems only apparent years and decades down the line. So it may or may not even be National's doing .... but the bottom line is the underlying issue is probably social problems





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  # 2248329 30-May-2019 11:18
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My MiL used to be a teacher.

 

She quit when one day an 8 year old said to her

 

"If you tell me off again, I am going to tell my Dad you touched me and he'll make sure you go to prison!"

 

 

 

Don't know if it's the same here, but that kind of thing has caused a drastic reduction in men becoming teachers in the UK. In primary school, 89% of teachers are female and after that 70%.






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  # 2248335 30-May-2019 11:26
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Hammerer:

 

I haven't seen the stats about salary relativities between teachers and members of parliament. But I'm certain that MPs' salaries have been increasing a lot faster.

 

 

One stat I saw last year was that in 1980 the top level for a high-school teacher was the same as a back-bench MP. Today a backbench MP gets about $160000. A high-school teacher at the top of the scale is a bit under half of that.

 

Also this needs to be stated more and more: the main issues for teachers are around workload and class size. The pay they are asking for is what was identified as needed to recruit enough quality candidates to the profession to staff the schools at the level they want. At the moment some poor performing teachers are being kept on in schools who would have otherwise dropped them because they know they won't be able to recruit a new teacher to replace them.

 

Yes this issue has been brewing for many years. Probably the seeds go all the way back to the early 90s. Under the Clark Govt things kind of stabilised for a bit but then under Key they got progressively worse. Some of the best stuff the PPTA has done lately is just re-releasing some of Chris Hipkins press releases from before the election identifying the same issues they are demanding be tackled now.


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  # 2248358 30-May-2019 11:42
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Varkk:

 

Hammerer:

 

I haven't seen the stats about salary relativities between teachers and members of parliament. But I'm certain that MPs' salaries have been increasing a lot faster.

 

 

One stat I saw last year was that in 1980 the top level for a high-school teacher was the same as a back-bench MP. Today a backbench MP gets about $160000. A high-school teacher at the top of the scale is a bit under half of that.

 

...

 

 

 

 

This Newshub article really highlights the difference. Scroll to the chart under section "Teachers vs MPs"

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/how-teachers-pay-has-fallen-behind-over-the-decades.html

 

Also, teacher pay vs other careers and house prices:

 

https://www.salaries.co.nz/a/2019/why-teachers-deserve-a-better-deal/

 

 


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