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2235 posts

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  # 2248365 30-May-2019 11:57
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We've just had a note through from our school principal stating that the rolling strikes will mean that over the next few weeks the odd "year" will have to stay at home on certain days. 

 

With all the talk of surpluses and wastage on other non-essential crap, how about just paying the bloody teachers what they are worth and let them get on with what they signed up to do...teach our kids. 

 

 

 

Not apolitical thing at all - no Govt or Opposition has lifted a finger despite loads of rhetoric. 

 

Stop talking, start doing. 





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  # 2248366 30-May-2019 11:57
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Varkk:

Hammerer:


I haven't seen the stats about salary relativities between teachers and members of parliament. But I'm certain that MPs' salaries have been increasing a lot faster.



One stat I saw last year was that in 1980 the top level for a high-school teacher was the same as a back-bench MP. Today a backbench MP gets about $160000. A high-school teacher at the top of the scale is a bit under half of that.


Also this needs to be stated more and more: the main issues for teachers are around workload and class size. The pay they are asking for is what was identified as needed to recruit enough quality candidates to the profession to staff the schools at the level they want. At the moment some poor performing teachers are being kept on in schools who would have otherwise dropped them because they know they won't be able to recruit a new teacher to replace them.


Yes this issue has been brewing for many years. Probably the seeds go all the way back to the early 90s. Under the Clark Govt things kind of stabilised for a bit but then under Key they got progressively worse. Some of the best stuff the PPTA has done lately is just re-releasing some of Chris Hipkins press releases from before the election identifying the same issues they are demanding be tackled now.



That's because mps (enforce themselves to) vote to have a pay rise every year in line with inflation while everyone else have their pay negotiation stalled.

Before someone brings up their current pay freeze it doesn't account for all the other pay rises when everyone else was stagnant.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2248384 30-May-2019 12:08
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Geektastic:

 

My MiL used to be a teacher.

 

She quit when one day an 8 year old said to her

 

"If you tell me off again, I am going to tell my Dad you touched me and he'll make sure you go to prison!"

 

 

 

Don't know if it's the same here, but that kind of thing has caused a drastic reduction in men becoming teachers in the UK. In primary school, 89% of teachers are female and after that 70%.

 

 

My mother was a Primary school teacher.

 

I only remember a couple of her (teaching, not administrative) colleagues being male.

 

 

 

The case in Christchurch (Peter Ellis?) did a lot of damage to getting males into early childhood and primary teaching. Probably still seeing the effects of that.


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  # 2248484 30-May-2019 13:56
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I think there's a bigger issue...

 

Society rewards people that are valued by giving them money and status... e.g. doctors, professionals of various kinds. There was a time when teachers were held in the same esteem as doctors. If teachers are getting little money (and have to twist arms to get realistic salaries), they're not valued.

 

But there's more... kids whose parents value education do better educationally, irrespective of what school they go to. (Freakonomics).

 

So, if we as a society are saying that teachers aren't worth very much, then we're also giving that message to our kids, and can expect poorer outcomes (crime, drugs, low-wage economy, etc) as a result.

 

 


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  # 2248512 30-May-2019 14:35
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Performance based pay would be good. 

 

I don't mind paying great teachers a lot more . 

 

But, on the other side of the coin there are some teachers who should not be teachers. 

 

 

 

 


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  # 2248543 30-May-2019 15:53
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surfisup1000:

 

Performance based pay would be good. 

 

 

How many times is this going to continually be casually proposed on this thread, despite the already numerous detailed responses as to why this is so damn hard to implement in the education sector? As it is, even in other fields the efficacy of performance-based pay is highly questionable.

 

Edit : I meant to add that you don't need a performance-based pay system to properly manage poor workers (including getting rid of them) - performance management is a separate issue, really.


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  # 2248606 30-May-2019 17:17
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Anecdotally I have heard that they want more money than is being offered, however the teachers realise this is a bad look out in the public arena, hence the repeated claims for improvement of conditions and the shift in focus on conditions rather than pay rates. This was my wife’s boss’ sister, who is a teacher and part of the union.

If it is actually true I wonder if the offer was adjusted to an increase in funding for teacher aides for schools, an increase in classrooms and teachers, an extra couple of hours a week for non-contact time, and 2% a year instead of 3, would it be accepted or would this not be enough?

I don’t think performance based pay for teachers is a good idea, many would already be hamstrung by virtue of the decile of the school and the area it serviced from the get go. When the students and their families are more focused on where the next meal is coming from or how to pay the power bill improving themselves in class is a massive ask.

 
 
 
 


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  # 2248616 30-May-2019 17:36
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jonathan18:

 

surfisup1000:

 

Performance based pay would be good. 

 

 

How many times is this going to continually be casually proposed on this thread, despite the already numerous detailed responses as to why this is so damn hard to implement in the education sector? As it is, even in other fields the efficacy of performance-based pay is highly questionable.

 

Edit : I meant to add that you don't need a performance-based pay system to properly manage poor workers (including getting rid of them) - performance management is a separate issue, really.

 

 

You speak the language of mediocrity. 

 

 




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  # 2248626 30-May-2019 17:52
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surfisup1000:

jonathan18:


surfisup1000:


Performance based pay would be good. 



How many times is this going to continually be casually proposed on this thread, despite the already numerous detailed responses as to why this is so damn hard to implement in the education sector? As it is, even in other fields the efficacy of performance-based pay is highly questionable.


Edit : I meant to add that you don't need a performance-based pay system to properly manage poor workers (including getting rid of them) - performance management is a separate issue, really.



You speak the language of mediocrity. 


 



Suggest what performance based payment might look like in education?

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  # 2248629 30-May-2019 18:04
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surfisup1000:

 

You speak the language of mediocrity. 

 

 

Perhaps read the whole thread before going any further, if there is any mediocrity being spoken it's the quality of your posts in comparison to a lot of the well reasoned and expressed arguments on both sides throughout the thread.  


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  # 2248703 30-May-2019 19:32
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I was going to add my own opinion about how performance-based pay for teachers isn't a good idea but I see this has already been covered.

 

 

 

My wife and sister-in-law are both primary school teachers, one in the new entrants and the other in the senior school.

 

These are some of the things they've had to deal with in the last nine months;

 

- Extremely violent behavior from a student where the classroom is absolutely trashed.

 

- A child admitting they are being physically abused by their guardian so bad, Oranga Tamariki had to remove the child and place them with relatives.

 

- Numerous students exhibiting self-harming behaviour, again where Oranga Tamariki are called in.

 

- One student threatening to bomb the school, attempting to cyber-attack the school and email bomb the teachers.

 

- One student who thought she might be pregnant (who was still at primary school).


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  # 2248723 30-May-2019 20:39
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I find the teacher strikes somewhat ironic.

 

I can remember back in about the early 1980's when teachers considered themselves to be above going on strike. They looked down their noses on striking workers. My how the world has changed. 

 

Before anyone starts quoting how top level teachers used to earn the same as a backbench MP but now earn about half of what a backbench MP earns, that wage shift has affected most occupations so the teachers are nothing special in this regard. Remember also those same people (you and I) who have suffered that same wage shift are the ones who are paying taxes to pay any increases the teachers may get.

 

I'm not saying the teachers are not worth more, but the money has to come from somewhere and will be coming from fellow New Zealanders who also could be justified in laying claim to similar wage increases. And so the Merry Go Round starts.

 

The real issue that needs addressing in this country is the large gap that has developed between those in management roles and the workers they are responsible for. The wage creep for politicians is one good example of this.





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  # 2248739 30-May-2019 21:01
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Technofreak:

 

I'm not saying the teachers are not worth more, but the money has to come from somewhere and will be coming from fellow New Zealanders who also could be justified in laying claim to similar wage increases. And so the Merry Go Round starts.

 

The real issue that needs addressing in this country is the large gap that has developed between those in management roles and the workers they are responsible for. The wage creep for politicians is one good example of this.

 

 

If the market was working we would be seeing significant wage increases.

 

A fundamental problem we are facing in New Zealand is that the labour market is disfunctional. If it was a functional market we would be seeing rapid wage growth. Functionally we have full employment (ie the ratio of employable people to employees is approximately 1:1) which should be driving wage growth due to supply and demand. This would then drive productivity improvements as it would be more attractive for businesses to invest in training, technology and innovation rather than just employing more low wage employees to drive growth.

 

Instead of letting the market function governments have let business drive mass immigration to supress wages without accounting for the other inflationary pressures like infrastructure and housing. 

 

There's no easy answer but unless we get real wage and salary growth we will continue on this spiral of the rich getting rich and the poor getting increasingly poor.


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  # 2248835 31-May-2019 06:00
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surfisup1000:
You speak the language of mediocrity. 


 



I speak the language, I’m somehow guessing, of someone with a bit more experience and understanding in the education sector.

Both parents were teachers, three siblings were teachers, and I’m a former teacher myself. That none of my siblings teach any more says volumes about what the job now entails.

What exactly is your plan as to how a fair, equitable, effective and cost-efficient performance-based pay system can be implemented in the NZ school system?


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  # 2248843 31-May-2019 07:22
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I think this article sums up things quite well. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/113106666/striking-teachers-have-a-case-but-so-do-lots-of-other-workers

It also touches on why there are so many problem studentss in class.




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