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  # 2249030 31-May-2019 11:24
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gehenna:

 

surfisup1000:

 

Cry me a river.  So only people with the same opinion as yours are well reasoned. 

 

 

"in comparison to a lot of the well reasoned and expressed arguments on both sides throughout the thread" 

 

 

All i said was that I think teacher performance pay would be a good thing.   I was not nasty or condescending at all. It is just my opinion, based on this being a successful model used overseas. 

 

So, why the unnecessarily rude reply. And from you too. 

 

So my view that pay equality results in mediocrity.. why does that offend you so much? 

 

 


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  # 2249031 31-May-2019 11:25
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jonathan18:
surfisup1000:
You speak the language of mediocrity. 

 

 

 



I speak the language, I’m somehow guessing, of someone with a bit more experience and understanding in the education sector.

Both parents were teachers, three siblings were teachers, and I’m a former teacher myself. That none of my siblings teach any more says volumes about what the job now entails.

What exactly is your plan as to how a fair, equitable, effective and cost-efficient performance-based pay system can be implemented in the NZ school system?

 

Follow the overseas models which work very well. 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2249059 31-May-2019 12:09
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surfisup1000:

 

I was not nasty or condescending at all. 

 

 

surfisup1000:

 

You speak the language of mediocrity. 

 

 

I responded to that.  

 

surfisup1000:

 

based on this being a successful model used overseas. 

 

 

Can you please cite your sources?


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  # 2249078 31-May-2019 13:15
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tdgeek:

 

If we were to vastly increase teachers, we also do that for nurses and doctors, we also add a lot of infrastructure for those two sectors,

 

 

Yeah, I agree. But I expect that the infrastructure would improve the teacher's efficiency.

 

So long as wages are artificially low, there's little incentive to improve the environment that people work in. No-one cares very much if a teacher is spending hours a day doing paperwork and attending meetings, their time is (relatively) cheap. Especially if they're prepared to work a 60-hour week to fit it in with their teaching work.

 

 


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  # 2249087 31-May-2019 13:39
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This action is going to drift into 2020 without a settlement. I'm calling this now.

 

I'm not sure how the teachers expect to win the argument with these low level strikes. While one day off here or there (say once a month) is annoying it is not really achieving anything.

 

Maybe it is putting it more in the public mind, but is it really persuading the government? No sign of that.

 

They are going to need to ramp up the strike action to get a result they want (not commenting either way on the validity of their bargaining position ATM).

 

They problem they have (Post Primary anyway) is that my the time the are at the stage to ramp up their strike action it will be start of term 4 and exam time.
Are they going to strike then? I suspect not.
Then it's School Holidays - no way they are striking in the Christmas holidays - what does that achieve.

 

So we are looking at 2020 and longer strikes in an election year before this is settled.

 

 

 

 


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  # 2249107 31-May-2019 13:58
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KrazyKid:

 

This action is going to drift into 2020 without a settlement. I'm calling this now.

 

I'm not sure how the teachers expect to win the argument with these low level strikes. While one day off here or there (say once a month) is annoying it is not really achieving anything.

 

Maybe it is putting it more in the public mind, but is it really persuading the government? No sign of that.

 

They are going to need to ramp up the strike action to get a result they want (not commenting either way on the validity of their bargaining position ATM).

 

They problem they have (Post Primary anyway) is that my the time the are at the stage to ramp up their strike action it will be start of term 4 and exam time.
Are they going to strike then? I suspect not.
Then it's School Holidays - no way they are striking in the Christmas holidays - what does that achieve.

 

So we are looking at 2020 and longer strikes in an election year before this is settled.

 

 

 

 

I tend to agree with you.  The only exception is if the Government also anticipate this and decide to settle soon so they don't look as bad going into the elections next year.


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  # 2249364 31-May-2019 21:00
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KrazyKid:


They problem they have (Post Primary anyway) is that my the time the are at the stage to ramp up their strike action it will be start of term 4 and exam time.
Are they going to strike then? I suspect not.



And yet if they do... that’s their strongest time BUT they’d lose a lot of the parent support too.

Another idea is to just ‘pass’ the entire year... what would/could the government do if they flat out refuse to mark exams, nd enter an automatic A+ result for every kid?

 
 
 
 


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  # 2249388 31-May-2019 22:54
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I'm fortunate enough to visit teachers quite often and talk to them individually or in groups specifically about their jobs and the various pains they face in order to create and improve products to make their lives easier. From what I've seen, I think teachers do an amazing job!

 

 


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  # 2249399 31-May-2019 23:51
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Everyone has the right to fight for what they believe in, especially teachers, and it's lovely to have kids at the office work place haha seeing working parents bring in their children is a nice change of atmosphere.




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  # 2249426 1-Jun-2019 06:12
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PhantomNVD:
KrazyKid:


They problem they have (Post Primary anyway) is that my the time the are at the stage to ramp up their strike action it will be start of term 4 and exam time.
Are they going to strike then? I suspect not.



And yet if they do... that’s their strongest time BUT they’d lose a lot of the parent support too.

Another idea is to just ‘pass’ the entire year... what would/could the government do if they flat out refuse to mark exams, nd enter an automatic A+ result for every kid?


This would be unethical. Even if the union suggested it teachers would refuse to do so.

A more likely option would be forgo any and all co curricular activities. As these are extras that teachers do and are not in there contract. However even then teachers would be loathe to give them up as students enjoy it so much

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  # 2249438 1-Jun-2019 07:51
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The thoughts I have are somewhat different and I am interested that they haven't been raised (sorry is longer than I thought when I started):

- how is technology and the modern learning environment effecting schooling. What I know is that a large amount of education is available to me on the internet. It seems the school (note sample size 1) I have seen is struggling to use these resources effectively or at all for the kids. Anecdotes from friends suggest this is different in other schools.

- performance is hard to measure for teaching because of the large number of confounders that exist and the outcomes required need to be measured over a long period. It is a similar problem to healthcare. The UK as a result of the Bristol inquiry decided to measure cardiac surgery outcomes. They found a number of surgeons changed their practice to no longer undertake risky surgery to ensure the outcomes reported looked appropriate. The debate continues about the ethics of this because while outcomes were worse for a smaller high risk cohort (ie. surgeons wouldn't operate) overall the outcomes improved. The irony being that while I say “outcomes” what I mean is measured very bluntly and short term (mortality from surgery) not whether the surgery resulted in aa better life. So maybe there are proxies for outcomes that mean some aspects of performance can be measured for teachers. This would have the benefits of some performance measurement but would need to come with an understanding that we may only infer outcomes from it. I am not qualified to design these measures but am sure they could exist. As a parent I want some reassurance my childs teacher is committed to doing a good job. I would then separate out pay from performance as I am not sure we have the ability to link them.

-Lastly I would think we would start with paying teachers enough (don't know how much that is - but it seems if everyone is unhappy it is probably reasonable). The observation I would make is that we have indexed benefits and super and MPs salaries to inflation so why wouldn't we do the same for teachers and other state/government employees (assuming the first statement is true).

Jon

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  # 2249516 1-Jun-2019 11:30
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voicetech:

 

KrazyKid:

 

This action is going to drift into 2020 without a settlement. I'm calling this now.

 

I'm not sure how the teachers expect to win the argument with these low level strikes. While one day off here or there (say once a month) is annoying it is not really achieving anything.

 

Maybe it is putting it more in the public mind, but is it really persuading the government? No sign of that.

 

They are going to need to ramp up the strike action to get a result they want (not commenting either way on the validity of their bargaining position ATM).

 

They problem they have (Post Primary anyway) is that my the time the are at the stage to ramp up their strike action it will be start of term 4 and exam time.
Are they going to strike then? I suspect not.
Then it's School Holidays - no way they are striking in the Christmas holidays - what does that achieve.

 

So we are looking at 2020 and longer strikes in an election year before this is settled.

 

 

 

 

I tend to agree with you.  The only exception is if the Government also anticipate this and decide to settle soon so they don't look as bad going into the elections next year.

 

 

If the Govt backed down, then roll on more strikes everywhere, free for all time. If they got a poor offer, there was plenty of money to spare, then there is a case. But they got a good offer, money is not spare (others already are complaining that the budget didn't help them or as much), so what will happen as it did with health is people get sick of it and support reduces. With teachers, more people are affected by strikes. How many people in NZ have kids at school???? Inconvenience, financial cost of childcare, work issues, parents will get annoyed quickly. We are looking at 2 strike days in close to a week, and then 20 June. 

 

Take the offer, maintain talks with Govt.

 

I don't imagine the Govt is saying if you take the offer, dont bother us for 3 years. Its likely they can squeak a but more each year for a while. 


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  # 2249528 1-Jun-2019 12:18
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

I dont disagree with you but we need it everywhere, we need to strike gold again

 

 

 

 

We do. Or oil. Or gas.

 

 

 

Oh hang on - did they not put an stop to looking for those?






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  # 2249534 1-Jun-2019 13:10
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Geektastic:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

I dont disagree with you but we need it everywhere, we need to strike gold again

 

 

 

 

We do. Or oil. Or gas.

 

 

 

Oh hang on - did they not put an stop to looking for those?

 

 

No, we are still looking for oil and gas


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  # 2249547 1-Jun-2019 14:19
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tdgeek:

 

Take the offer, maintain talks with Govt.

 

I don't imagine the Govt is saying if you take the offer, dont bother us for 3 years. Its likely they can squeak a but more each year for a while. 

 

 

In the past it appears to have meant that teachers get little or no resolution on the issues left unresolved after the latest collective agreement is settled. Squeaks have no value outside the negotiations so the opportunity is lost until the next round of negotiations. The one real exception is partial progress at the next election if the government's election campaign needs sweeteners ("bribes") to bolster their votes.

 

I think that the government expects teachers to cave in now like they have in the past. This usually means another opportunity to get a meaningful change is lost and we have to wait another three years.

 

The last time teachers seemed this determined/militant was about 20 years ago when the government was merging and closing many schools. The government backed down on that issue but avoided having to do much to improve teaching. The strikes also improved the financial position of the education vote because it is a big saving when you don't have to pay striking teachers.


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