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  # 2258711 15-Jun-2019 12:35
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Aredwood:
Rikkitic:

 

A lot of petrol stations, especially overseas, also have LPG pumps. If hydrogen could be transported and delivered using LPG infrastructure (with or without some modification), it wouldn't be such a huge leap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



LPG infrastructure is completely unsuitable for H2. As the pressures required to make H2 form a liquid are way way higher than with LPG. And lookup Hydrogen embrittlement.

 

Lets forget H2, just use it for aircraft. Lets go back to LPG


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  # 2258712 15-Jun-2019 12:38
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

If I wanted to talk about doors, I dont want a reply about windows. I, thats me, was discussing water vapour that you decided is bad and that anything else is fake.

 

But I give up as you dont want to discuss the one topic I was posting about.

 

 

Good, because you seem to regard what should be a friendly exchange of views as some sort of battle that has to be won! 

 

 

Not at all, but if any comment has any negative impact on EV, or looks at an alternative its shut down by the EV fan club. If we want something to help climate change , EV is very long term. Very long term.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2258714 15-Jun-2019 12:41
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Aredwood:

 


LPG infrastructure is completely unsuitable for H2. As the pressures required to make H2 form a liquid are way way higher than with LPG. And lookup Hydrogen embrittlement.

 

It was just a suggestion. You seem very knowledgeable on a wide range of technical issues, but your posts are almost always about why something won't work. Yet what strikes me about the history of technological development is how good people are at figuring out ways around such obstacles. Unfortunately politics and short-term thinking often result in solutions that are not the best from a technical standpoint. I don't know if hydrogen is an answer to anything, but it is available in unlimited quantities from the oceans and it can be directly burned in existing ICE engines as well as used to power fuel cells. I am aware that trying to use it for internal combustion comes with a truckload of other problems but in principle it can be done. Today's ICE engines did not spring from someone's forehead fully developed in 1895. They are the result of a long, painful, difficult evolution. If the same amount of effort and resources had been devoted to either electricity or hydrogen, the world would be a very different place today. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 2258717 15-Jun-2019 12:57
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This was in the Hydrogen thread so moving it here, as a suggestion to help climate change. The key factor is that it can be done now and progressively throughout the life of our ICE fleet. The ICE fleet walk be here for decades. LPG is a lot cleaner than petrol. That will allow a beer result now, as the EV fleet slowly increases over the next few decades 

 

debo:

 

I think that methane/CNG/LPG Gas Fuel Cells could be the way to until the battery supply problem is solved.  Hydrogen is normally made from the stuff anyways.  Using it directly solves the storage and supply problems of hydrogen.  The infrastructure for Gas is already in place all around the country.  It is 'instant charge', no range anxiety, no need to lug around heavy batteries, no need for a charging station at home/work.  Yes it produces CO2 but so does the current fleet of vehicles.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Makes sense. I'd forgot about those. What are the conversion costs?

 

 

 

LPG produces 33% less CO2 emissions than petrol and 45% less CO2 than diesel. LPG vehicles produce up to 82% less Nitrogen Oxide pollutants than petrol and 99% better than diesel

 

 

 

Conversion costs and fuel savings will determine viability.




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  # 2258739 15-Jun-2019 14:01
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tdgeek:

 

Aredwood:
Rikkitic:

 

A lot of petrol stations, especially overseas, also have LPG pumps. If hydrogen could be transported and delivered using LPG infrastructure (with or without some modification), it wouldn't be such a huge leap.

 



LPG infrastructure is completely unsuitable for H2. As the pressures required to make H2 form a liquid are way way higher than with LPG. And lookup Hydrogen embrittlement.

 

Lets forget H2, just use it for aircraft. Lets go back to LPG

 

 

However, because water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas in the planet's atmosphere, if it's emitted from aircraft at a high altitude, it may have a greater potential for increasing global warming than if emitted at ground level.


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  # 2258742 15-Jun-2019 14:04
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Aredwood:
Rikkitic:

 

A lot of petrol stations, especially overseas, also have LPG pumps. If hydrogen could be transported and delivered using LPG infrastructure (with or without some modification), it wouldn't be such a huge leap.

 



LPG infrastructure is completely unsuitable for H2. As the pressures required to make H2 form a liquid are way way higher than with LPG. And lookup Hydrogen embrittlement.

 

Lets forget H2, just use it for aircraft. Lets go back to LPG

 

 

However, because water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas in the planet's atmosphere, if it's emitted from aircraft at a high altitude, it may have a greater potential for increasing global warming than if emitted at ground level.

 

 

Ok, lets focus on fossil fuels. Unsure of LPG would cut it for aircraft. LPG does seem the way forward. 


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  # 2258744 15-Jun-2019 14:06
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frednz:

 

 

 

However, because water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas in the planet's atmosphere, if it's emitted from aircraft at a high altitude, it may have a greater potential for increasing global warming than if emitted at ground level.

 

 

Note that vapour has a life in the atmosphere of days. 


 
 
 
 




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  # 2258746 15-Jun-2019 14:13
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

However, because water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas in the planet's atmosphere, if it's emitted from aircraft at a high altitude, it may have a greater potential for increasing global warming than if emitted at ground level.

 

 

Note that vapour has a life in the atmosphere of days. 

 

 

Nevertheless, aircraft water vapour emissions could have a high global warming potential and more expert research would be needed into this topic before going ahead with powering thousands of aircraft using hydrogen. 


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  # 2258748 15-Jun-2019 14:29
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

However, because water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas in the planet's atmosphere, if it's emitted from aircraft at a high altitude, it may have a greater potential for increasing global warming than if emitted at ground level.

 

 

Note that vapour has a life in the atmosphere of days. 

 

 

Nevertheless, aircraft water vapour emissions could have a high global warming potential and more expert research would be needed into this topic before going ahead with powering thousands of aircraft using hydrogen. 

 

 

Thats a conservative attitude. Reading about water vapour, it's known it stays up there for days. Avgas emits traditions fossil fuel emissions, which stay up there for massive periods of time. While we would want research on this, its not a new topic. Neither is the effect of FF emissions. We don't have much time. I can't think of any moves that will give us a tangible and worthwhile benefit in timely manner.

 

Another suggestion is if LPG can be intensified, so that it has more punch. That does not matter in a car, it does matter in the air. It would probably not be viable if it remains at 80% energy intensity of a full FF. 

 

 




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  # 2258751 15-Jun-2019 14:42
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

However, because water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas in the planet's atmosphere, if it's emitted from aircraft at a high altitude, it may have a greater potential for increasing global warming than if emitted at ground level.

 

 

Note that vapour has a life in the atmosphere of days. 

 

 

Nevertheless, aircraft water vapour emissions could have a high global warming potential and more expert research would be needed into this topic before going ahead with powering thousands of aircraft using hydrogen. 

 

 

Thats a conservative attitude. Reading about water vapour, it's known it stays up there for days. Avgas emits traditions fossil fuel emissions, which stay up there for massive periods of time. While we would want research on this, its not a new topic. Neither is the effect of FF emissions. We don't have much time. I can't think of any moves that will give us a tangible and worthwhile benefit in timely manner.

 

Another suggestion is if LPG can be intensified, so that it has more punch. That does not matter in a car, it does matter in the air. It would probably not be viable if it remains at 80% energy intensity of a full FF. 

 

 

 

 

Although much depends on how many future aircraft may use hydrogen power, expert researchers warn there is the potential for high global warming from this source due to water vapour emissions, so a conservative attitude is definitely called for.

 

 


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  # 2258768 15-Jun-2019 15:21
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frednz:

 

Although much depends on how many future aircraft may use hydrogen power, expert researchers warn there is the potential for high global warming from this source due to water vapour emissions, so a conservative attitude is definitely called for.

 

 

 

 

Therein lies the failure of Earth

 

Currently aircraft add FF emissions that will stay aloft for a massive period of time. That could be replaced by an aircraft that adds vapour for a few days.

 

Lets do research on that for 20 years. Doesnt matter, it will be too late anyway. While I dont advocate blind ideas, I also dont advocate ignoring known data and waiting and waiting and waiting.

 

We will talk about all these ideas for a long long time. And do little. Ironically we will also show concern as to how important climate change is. Yet we did little. I guess it just shows that its not that important right now, we have plenty of time, lets make sure we do it right. We dont have much time at all, we have probably already missed the boat due to the feedback effect. As Ive noted here earlier, its likely that our efforts will be on mitigation as its then, too late. Rather than prevention. Posts here confirm that.


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  # 2258784 15-Jun-2019 16:31
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Aredwood: LPG infrastructure is completely unsuitable for H2. As the pressures required to make H2 form a liquid are way way higher than with LPG. And lookup Hydrogen embrittlement.

There are a range of applications where the liquid form is not required. Also, NZ transmission trials are planned:

New Zealand Herald: The company, which operates the trunk gas transmission network in the North Island, plans to select part of a pipeline network to test a range of assets on various blends of hydrogen gas, the best sources of hydrogen for those locations, and how to measure and meter energy flows.

"Hydrogen is emissions-free at the point of use," chief executive Paul Goodeve says. "Trials are starting up all over the world and must start here in New Zealand if we are to have all options on the table to achieve our zero-emission targets.

"The trial is intensely practical: we need to work out what we need to modify on our network to transport the gas, and what adaptations users may need to make to machinery and practices."


Long topic so notification to @Aredwood

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  # 2258801 15-Jun-2019 17:29
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gzt:
Aredwood: LPG infrastructure is completely unsuitable for H2. As the pressures required to make H2 form a liquid are way way higher than with LPG. And lookup Hydrogen embrittlement.

There are a range of applications where the liquid form is not required. Also, NZ transmission trials are planned:

New Zealand Herald: The company, which operates the trunk gas transmission network in the North Island, plans to select part of a pipeline network to test a range of assets on various blends of hydrogen gas, the best sources of hydrogen for those locations, and how to measure and meter energy flows.

"Hydrogen is emissions-free at the point of use," chief executive Paul Goodeve says. "Trials are starting up all over the world and must start here in New Zealand if we are to have all options on the table to achieve our zero-emission targets.

"The trial is intensely practical: we need to work out what we need to modify on our network to transport the gas, and what adaptations users may need to make to machinery and practices."


Long topic so notification to @Aredwood

 

Ive done a bit of Googling this avo on Hydrogen. As a gas, what's happening with electrolysis, they talk of using it in existing home gas solutions mixing with diesel, capturing the carbon produced by some of these processes. Its in quite a few various niche uses already.  


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  # 2258833 15-Jun-2019 18:01
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It's easy to dump on Millennials, but we must also remember ... it's funny.

When Millennials Try Environmentalism

AsapSCIENCE

Why is being an environmentalist so hard?


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  # 2258845 15-Jun-2019 18:52
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frednz:

 

Although much depends on how many future aircraft may use hydrogen power

 

 

I don't see hydrogen as a viable aircraft fuel. All the reasons it's not good as a car fuel apply to aircraft, in spades, particularly weight of containers and risk of explosion. In addition, prices will be even higher than for cars because there aren't the economies of scale that there are in automobile fuels. And aviation is notoriously conservative; it will take decades to develop and certify a solution.

 

In the meantime, battery-powered light aircraft are available right now. And batteries' energy density is expected to improve.

 

Maybe hydrogen might be a good fuel for ships?

 

 

 

 


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