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657 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2384552 3-Jan-2020 12:25
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Talkiet:

 

I believe in climate change, but I don't believe that banning single use plastic bags from supermarkets and takeaways in NZ, and a few very well off people buying an EV instead of an ICE car are going to help. Maybe once we're able to ban plastic labels on fresh fruit we'll be getting somewhere.

 

 

Banning plastic bags and climate change aren't really related so you're right, banning plastics isn't going to help climate change 😉. The main reason for banning single-use plastic items is to prevent them ending up in the environment where they injure and kill wildlife, while also impacting human health once they get into our food sources.

 

You're also right that a few people buying EVs now isn't going to have a big impact right now. However, curbing our reliance on fossil fuels has to start somewhere and like with any new technology it was always going to start with those that have the financial capacity to be early adopters (these cars eventually become second hand cars where their prices are more in reach of a wider audience). As more of us who can afford to make the switch to an EV do, the cheaper the cars become and thus new EVs become available at lower budget levels.

 

Are you suggesting if we can't do it all at once then it's no point doing it at all?

 

 


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  #2384560 3-Jan-2020 12:39
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Extinction Rebellion's meteoric rise has left many people -- including some of its founders -- wondering how they managed it, and whether the movement can maintain the momentum

 

They'll also be wondering how to monetize it into another Greenpeace...

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2384566 3-Jan-2020 12:55
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Obraik:

 

Talkiet:

 

I believe in climate change, but I don't believe that banning single use plastic bags from supermarkets and takeaways in NZ, and a few very well off people buying an EV instead of an ICE car are going to help. Maybe once we're able to ban plastic labels on fresh fruit we'll be getting somewhere.

 

 

Banning plastic bags and climate change aren't really related so you're right, banning plastics isn't going to help climate change 😉. The main reason for banning single-use plastic items is to prevent them ending up in the environment where they injure and kill wildlife, while also impacting human health once they get into our food sources.

 

You're also right that a few people buying EVs now isn't going to have a big impact right now. However, curbing our reliance on fossil fuels has to start somewhere and like with any new technology it was always going to start with those that have the financial capacity to be early adopters (these cars eventually become second hand cars where their prices are more in reach of a wider audience). As more of us who can afford to make the switch to an EV do, the cheaper the cars become and thus new EVs become available at lower budget levels.

 

Are you suggesting if we can't do it all at once then it's no point doing it at all?

 

 

Look, if you're going to bring cogent discourse to the table then I am not sure you're in the right place :-)

 

But seriously of course you are correct - and I understand there needs to be a certain level of puffery around the early stages of any changes so they're not written off by everyone - but to me at least it seems many people take the headline claims or aspirational descriptions of the benefits and seem to adopt them as fact. At that point you have people making ludicrous claims like their being figuratively no downsides to buying an EV because they will only see one side of the equation...

 

When that starts to happen though, there is grossly misleading or patently false information circulating in the argument and that badly muddies the waters for anyone that likes to think critically - now instead of being able to look at the facts, they have a heap of alt-facts to wade through as well.

 

I think there are bigger problems than plastic stickers on fruit that should be attacked head on but the bigger problems create issues for business, not individuals - and even a Labour government realises they can't really hurt businesses if they want to continue with a decent economy. Example : If they had mandated all supermarket foodstuffs eliminated wasteful single use packaging then it would have been an economic disaster as 90% of things on shelves either disappeared or skyrocketed in price... So instead of the 95% of waste, let's focus on the bags which the supermarkets were able to even come out of cost neutral. I still walk out of a supermarket with 99%+ as much single use plastic as I did before the ban. (I am sure more conscientious purchasers will achieve a much better ratio than I do!)

 

We have to start somewhere (and we have) but at least on the EV side the choices today are greatly limited in terms of function, or only available to reasonably well off people. Anyone abusing or looking down on others that either have needs not met by current EVs or not able to justify or afford the huge price premium for a decent EV may be contributing to a divisive state of affairs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFn1WEaYY3A

 

As I have said before, real change will come when the environmentally preferred solutions are as good as, AND cheaper than the current options, or when they get mandated in law. Until then, those that can afford to put environmental concerns over personal and family economic concerns - THANKS for doing that, but don't be dicks about it to those that can't.

 

Cheers - N

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


657 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2384581 3-Jan-2020 13:27
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Talkiet:

 

Look, if you're going to bring cogent discourse to the table then I am not sure you're in the right place :-)

 

But seriously of course you are correct - and I understand there needs to be a certain level of puffery around the early stages of any changes so they're not written off by everyone - but to me at least it seems many people take the headline claims or aspirational descriptions of the benefits and seem to adopt them as fact. At that point you have people making ludicrous claims like their being figuratively no downsides to buying an EV because they will only see one side of the equation...

 

When that starts to happen though, there is grossly misleading or patently false information circulating in the argument and that badly muddies the waters for anyone that likes to think critically - now instead of being able to look at the facts, they have a heap of alt-facts to wade through as well.

 

I think there are bigger problems than plastic stickers on fruit that should be attacked head on but the bigger problems create issues for business, not individuals - and even a Labour government realises they can't really hurt businesses if they want to continue with a decent economy. Example : If they had mandated all supermarket foodstuffs eliminated wasteful single use packaging then it would have been an economic disaster as 90% of things on shelves either disappeared or skyrocketed in price... So instead of the 95% of waste, let's focus on the bags which the supermarkets were able to even come out of cost neutral. I still walk out of a supermarket with 99%+ as much single use plastic as I did before the ban. (I am sure more conscientious purchasers will achieve a much better ratio than I do!)

 

We have to start somewhere (and we have) but at least on the EV side the choices today are greatly limited in terms of function, or only available to reasonably well off people. Anyone abusing or looking down on others that either have needs not met by current EVs or not able to justify or afford the huge price premium for a decent EV may be contributing to a divisive state of affairs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFn1WEaYY3A

 

As I have said before, real change will come when the environmentally preferred solutions are as good as, AND cheaper than the current options, or when they get mandated in law. Until then, those that can afford to put environmental concerns over personal and family economic concerns - THANKS for doing that, but don't be dicks about it to those that can't.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

With the plastic bag ban, slowly adding to what is banned was the right way to go about it. Banning everything overnight was never going to work and as you mentioned, the government knew that. They started off with the easy and most visible option first (plastic bags), which brings awareness to the topic and shows that while changing has some inconvenience at first it's not the end of the world and is infact pretty easy. Once that's done, adding more to the list such as plastic straws and fruit stickers is pretty trivial. There's nothing wrong with starting with a few things as long as that's not where it stops. As I mentioned though, plastic bans isn't about climate change; it's about the welfare of our wildlife and ultimately, our food sources.

 

With EVs, I feel you're seeing them from the perspective of how you use a car. At this point in time, there are a number of use cases where an EV doesn't make sense, such as long distance towing and there are certain classes of vehicles that just don't exist in EV form yet. However, for the vast majority of people the EVs available today are more than suitable. Most cars only go to and from work, the shops or school with the occasional trip between cities (maybe once or twice a year) which even a Nissan Leaf is quite capable of. Most people see their car like they do their toaster - it's simply a tool to get them from point a to point b and they don't really think about it as anything more than that. With a used Leaf starting at $10k on TradeMe, an EV is in reach of most people for the daily tasks they use a car for.

 

If you're the sort that likes more frequent longer distance trips then there are a number of options there too but yes, they cost quite a bit more. A long range Tesla will get you from Auckland to Wellington with the same amount of stops as a petrol based vehicle, for instance.

 

So while I agree, an EV might not suit what you use a car for I don't agree that EVs aren't ready for the masses. Excluding people such as yourself, their functionality is no less than that of any other car they're currently driving for the task they're using it for. The limiting factor right now is price.


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  #2384583 3-Jan-2020 13:32
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Obraik:

 

[snip]

 

So while I agree, an EV might not suit what you use a car for I don't agree that EVs aren't ready for the masses. Excluding people such as yourself, their functionality is no less than that of any other car they're currently driving for the task they're using it for. The limiting factor right now is price.

 

 

I largely agree with your statements and I agree that average car use is low... But if a family needs to make a single 200k trip every fortnight then either they have to start planning to make sure their trip includes access to chargers and significant downtime if it's not overnight - or they need another car.

 

Averages can really obscure relevant metrics and that is certainly the case here.

 

I wouldn't buy a car that had a top speed of 70kmh even though my average driving speed is well under 70kmh!

 

Cheers - N

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


657 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2384604 3-Jan-2020 13:53
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Talkiet:

 

I largely agree with your statements and I agree that average car use is low... But if a family needs to make a single 200k trip every fortnight then either they have to start planning to make sure their trip includes access to chargers and significant downtime if it's not overnight - or they need another car.

 

Averages can really obscure relevant metrics and that is certainly the case here.

 

I wouldn't buy a car that had a top speed of 70kmh even though my average driving speed is well under 70kmh!

 

Cheers - N

 

 

If we're talking about a second hand Leaf then no, it's not going to be adequate for that 200km trip every fortnight. If the budget allows for it though then anything from a Kona to a Tesla is quite capable of doing that trip without stopping, however.


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  #2384605 3-Jan-2020 13:58
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Obraik:

 

Talkiet:

 

I largely agree with your statements and I agree that average car use is low... But if a family needs to make a single 200k trip every fortnight then either they have to start planning to make sure their trip includes access to chargers and significant downtime if it's not overnight - or they need another car.

 

Averages can really obscure relevant metrics and that is certainly the case here.

 

I wouldn't buy a car that had a top speed of 70kmh even though my average driving speed is well under 70kmh!

 

Cheers - N

 

 

If we're talking about a second hand Leaf then no, it's not going to be adequate for that 200km trip every fortnight. If the budget allows for it though then anything from a Kona to a Tesla is quite capable of doing that trip without stopping, however.

 

 

Agreed, but this is the cheapest EV Kona available at the moment in NZ. I don't know the figures honestly - but how many people in NZ can afford a $70k car? "If the budget allows" is a very VERY big qualifier in this case.

 

 

N.





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


 
 
 
 


657 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2384608 3-Jan-2020 14:05
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Talkiet:

 

Agreed, but this is the cheapest EV Kona available at the moment in NZ. I don't know the figures honestly - but how many people in NZ can afford a $70k car? "If the budget allows" is a very VERY big qualifier in this case.

 

 

N.

 

 

That's what I mentioned above, EVs aren't limited by functionality these days, the sole limiting factor is cost. I'm well aware that these prices are out of reach for most people. 

 

However, there are plenty of families rocking around in brand new BMW and Audi SUVs that would be perfectly suited by their EV equivalent (by the same manufacturers, infact) and maybe that will be the choice they make when they make their next purchase. This then starts the second hand cycle and makes an EV a viable option for more families later on down the road when they enter the second hand market. So yes, we need to be encouraging those that have the means to make their next vehicle an EV to ultimately bring EVs to all price points.


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  #2384618 3-Jan-2020 14:27
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Again, all mostly reasonable but until now I have ignored the value proposition to the individual... $70k buys you the cheapest medium range EV in the country or...

 

- a 2014 AMG Mercedes C63 and Two extra Nissan Leafs (Leaves?)

 

- Two x 2014 Range Rover Evoques

 

- a 2017 Maserati Ghibli

 

- Four and a half 2016 Priuses

 

- A brand new Nexus UX250H SUV Hybrid AND $15k cash

 

Or a multitude of other cars which will be more usable, more luxurious, more spacious, faster, look better, drive better and be safer.

 

The point is that even at the low end of the decent range EVs, someone has to make a deliberate choice to have a worse car... And some people will - but not everyone treats a car simply as an A to B transport device. Just because someone is in a brand new Audi or BMW at the moment - you have no idea why they bought it - it might have been for the space, the power, the brand, the comfort, the safety etc... Even at the same price a lot of those buyers won't want to compromise down to what is unquestionably in some aspects an inferior car.

 

In order to have a compelling base to argue from - understand the position of the other side - understand their motives. It's not up to the encumbent (ICE) to justify change here.

 

I still think the major barrier to EV takeup is that they are simply too expensive and the Kona is a brilliant example of that. A new petrol Kona is around $31k, a new EV Kona is $70k. Features, comforts, size etc are broadly the same so it's $39k worth of premium to have an EV. You'll get some of that back in maintenance and fuel costs, but over the realistic first purchaser life of the car you're never getting anything like all of it back.

 

If EV takeup is important to NZ, to our society and our politicians then they would be funding huge subsidies - not token amounts - they'd be making equivalent models (Petrol/EV) the same effective price over 4-5 years. That at least would then provide a compelling fiscal case for someone that can afford a new car (and doesn't have edge case requirements like towing or long distance driving) to pick the EV. At the moment the successful people with the funds to afford EVs have to make a fiscally dumb decision and if we're hoping that's going to work out at scale then we're deluding ourselves.

 

N.

 

 

 

 

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


Mad Scientist
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  #2384648 3-Jan-2020 15:35
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you can get 2 range rover evoques for 70k? wow. makes my subaru feel cheap ...





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


657 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2384654 3-Jan-2020 16:11
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Talkiet:

 

Again, all mostly reasonable but until now I have ignored the value proposition to the individual... $70k buys you the cheapest medium range EV in the country or...

 

- a 2014 AMG Mercedes C63 and Two extra Nissan Leafs (Leaves?)

 

- Two x 2014 Range Rover Evoques

 

- a 2017 Maserati Ghibli

 

- Four and a half 2016 Priuses

 

- A brand new Nexus UX250H SUV Hybrid AND $15k cash

 

Or a multitude of other cars which will be more usable, more luxurious, more spacious, faster, look better, drive better and be safer.

 

The point is that even at the low end of the decent range EVs, someone has to make a deliberate choice to have a worse car... And some people will - but not everyone treats a car simply as an A to B transport device. Just because someone is in a brand new Audi or BMW at the moment - you have no idea why they bought it - it might have been for the space, the power, the brand, the comfort, the safety etc... Even at the same price a lot of those buyers won't want to compromise down to what is unquestionably in some aspects an inferior car.

 

In order to have a compelling base to argue from - understand the position of the other side - understand their motives. It's not up to the encumbent (ICE) to justify change here.

 

I still think the major barrier to EV takeup is that they are simply too expensive and the Kona is a brilliant example of that. A new petrol Kona is around $31k, a new EV Kona is $70k. Features, comforts, size etc are broadly the same so it's $39k worth of premium to have an EV. You'll get some of that back in maintenance and fuel costs, but over the realistic first purchaser life of the car you're never getting anything like all of it back.

 

If EV takeup is important to NZ, to our society and our politicians then they would be funding huge subsidies - not token amounts - they'd be making equivalent models (Petrol/EV) the same effective price over 4-5 years. That at least would then provide a compelling fiscal case for someone that can afford a new car (and doesn't have edge case requirements like towing or long distance driving) to pick the EV. At the moment the successful people with the funds to afford EVs have to make a fiscally dumb decision and if we're hoping that's going to work out at scale then we're deluding ourselves.

 

N.

 

 

Comparing what one could buy used for the same amount as new is pointless. If you're buying new you're not looking to buy used.

 

Not everyone does treat their car as a tool to get them from A to B, but most people do. Again, an EV isn't an inferior car these days. Performance wise they out perform ICE vehicles at the same price points. For safety they outperform ICE vehicles. And luxury wise, they can at least match if not exceed their ICE counterparts (look at the offerings from Jaguar, Mercedes and Audi). The argument that an EV is an inferior option is well outdated.

 

As I've posted myself, yes, the main barrier to EVs at the moment is the price premium but those prices are coming down, largely thanks to those of us that have dipped our toes early into EVs and thanks to those countries around the world that have spurred on massive uptake of EVs by means of decent incentives. While there are a number of issues I have with the details, I'm glad to see that our government is about to offer actual incentives here too. 

 

Fiscally, the decision isn't bad once you get pass a certain price point. The $30-70k price brackets, sure, you're spending a lot on a car that isn't much different from a ICE car that's $25-$30k other than the fact that it's electric. Once you get to the $70k beyond, as long as you were already in the market for a $70k+ car then the comparison is much more equal. Eg, if you're in the market for a BMW 3 series that's basically the same money as a Tesla Model 3 (the Tesla is slightly cheaper) but you end up with more car with the Tesla option. Plenty of people seem to have noticed that both here and overseas, which is probably why the Model 3 is outselling the 3 series by quite a bit.


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  #2384658 3-Jan-2020 16:20
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We're never going to agree - for example your statement that "Comparing what one could buy used for the same amount as new is pointless" just doesn't resonate as truth with me. It _MIGHT_ be right, but it doesn't feel right to me and I don't think anyone I know well would hold that opinion either. I know I would rather have a 2-3 year old car that's already had the massive 'from-new' depreciation hit.

 

As for the rest, again, I simply don't agree with you on many points but again, some of that's going to be opinion and some is going to be which stats each of us choose to cherry-pick.

 

Where I do agree is that as you get into the expensive/luxury segment, the values of EV and ICE get a lot closer. That means nothing to me today, and means nothing for most people for 5-10 years when they start being available secondhand.

 

Cheers - N

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


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  #2384662 3-Jan-2020 16:38
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Talkiet:

 

We're never going to agree - for example your statement that "Comparing what one could buy used for the same amount as new is pointless" just doesn't resonate as truth with me. It _MIGHT_ be right, but it doesn't feel right to me and I don't think anyone I know well would hold that opinion either. I know I would rather have a 2-3 year old car that's already had the massive 'from-new' depreciation hit.

 

As for the rest, again, I simply don't agree with you on many points but again, some of that's going to be opinion and some is going to be which stats each of us choose to cherry-pick.

 

Where I do agree is that as you get into the expensive/luxury segment, the values of EV and ICE get a lot closer. That means nothing to me today, and means nothing for most people for 5-10 years when they start being available secondhand.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

 

 

Agree. You mentioned fiscally dumb a few posts back. Buying a $2500 iPhone is the same, and many products we might buy the highest ticket option, cos we can. For say a Tesla, thats an emotional buy. Its a premium brand, latest tech, status symbol etc. There is no ICE version so we can say well its a 70k or 125k car so that's fine. With say a Kona, thats fiscally dumb, as you say a $39,000 price premium. Given all this, EV's are a niche market. Annecdotally, hybrids seem the go, many I know got one or are getting one, new and used. But right now, the benefit of lower emissions ends up being very very small, as very few EV's are sold compared to ICE, due to the price. Of al the cars sold every year, a low % are 60k+ and of those. most are ICE. So the climate change metric doesn't really exist. If it takes 5 - 10 years for these to filter down as affordable EV's, thats a lot of emissions created. Seems to me that while EV production is low, and that they are all being sold easily, there isnt much motivation for manufacturers to reduce the price. You probably need one maker to capture more market with price competition, so the others follow.


657 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2384703 3-Jan-2020 17:54
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Talkiet:

 

We're never going to agree - for example your statement that "Comparing what one could buy used for the same amount as new is pointless" just doesn't resonate as truth with me. It _MIGHT_ be right, but it doesn't feel right to me and I don't think anyone I know well would hold that opinion either. I know I would rather have a 2-3 year old car that's already had the massive 'from-new' depreciation hit.

 

As for the rest, again, I simply don't agree with you on many points but again, some of that's going to be opinion and some is going to be which stats each of us choose to cherry-pick.

 

Where I do agree is that as you get into the expensive/luxury segment, the values of EV and ICE get a lot closer. That means nothing to me today, and means nothing for most people for 5-10 years when they start being available secondhand.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

No, we're probably not going to agree as we're probably on opposite ends of the ruler when it comes to EVs. 

 

Until recently, I also wouldn't have considered buying new. I like a car that's fun to drive and buying new means dramatically increasing your budget to get something fun. Ultimately, there's little difference between an ICE vehicle that's 5 years old vs one that's brand new - the engine tech is the same, the performance is mostly the same, the emissions are mostly the same, you just pay a lot to get that new car smell. However, with my recent purchase I wanted something fun but this time I was in a position where I could get something fun that was far better for the environment and went with a "Performance Stealth" Model 3. So yes, I paid substantially more than I would have for the normal second hand car I would have purchased but it felt worth it because a) no emissions and b) the technology is vastly superior to anything else - there isn't currently a second hand equivalent.


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  #2384706 3-Jan-2020 18:08
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Completely fair points. I feel I should point out I love technology and I would love an EV for geek reasons if not green reasons(!). It's just that I am also a motorsport enthusiast with a race car trailer to tow from time to time so really there's no EV that would work particularly well for me under $100k and I can't justify two expensive road cars.

 

Cheers - N

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


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