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1288 posts

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  #2384760 3-Jan-2020 20:49
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Talkiet:

 

I still think the major barrier to EV takeup is that they are simply too expensive and the Kona is a brilliant example of that. A new petrol Kona is around $31k, a new EV Kona is $70k. Features, comforts, size etc are broadly the same so it's $39k worth of premium to have an EV. You'll get some of that back in maintenance and fuel costs, but over the realistic first purchaser life of the car you're never getting anything like all of it back.

 

If EV takeup is important to NZ, to our society and our politicians then they would be funding huge subsidies - not token amounts - they'd be making equivalent models (Petrol/EV) the same effective price over 4-5 years. That at least would then provide a compelling fiscal case for someone that can afford a new car (and doesn't have edge case requirements like towing or long distance driving) to pick the EV. At the moment the successful people with the funds to afford EVs have to make a fiscally dumb decision and if we're hoping that's going to work out at scale then we're deluding ourselves.

 

N.

 

 

A new Hyundai Kona 64kWh entry level model is $78,000 and the elite model is $84,000. An equivalent petrol Kona is around $42,000 so as you say there is a huge premium to get the EV when compared with the petrol version. But you can get a new 40kWh Nissan Leaf for $60,000, which is a bit better but has far less range and no liquid cooling system for the battery.

 

So, people with $84,000 to spend can now choose the Tesla Model 3 and, unless you particularly want a small car, people seem to prefer the Tesla over the Kona.

 

But thousands of people buy new small petrol cars in the $20,000 to $30,000 range, and until EVs can match these vehicles in price and range, EVs are unlikely to take off quite yet.

 

This is a pity, because from a climate change viewpoint, we do really need to get as many people into EVs as possible.


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  #2384767 3-Jan-2020 21:02
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Talkiet:

 

I still think the major barrier to EV takeup is that they are simply too expensive and the Kona is a brilliant example of that. A new petrol Kona is around $31k, a new EV Kona is $70k. Features, comforts, size etc are broadly the same so it's $39k worth of premium to have an EV. You'll get some of that back in maintenance and fuel costs, but over the realistic first purchaser life of the car you're never getting anything like all of it back.

 

 

Actually, with fuel being a quarter the price of petrol, and no RUC, you'll get a *lot* of that back. For me, it would probably take 15 years to get that $39K back. So, *if* I was going to buy a brand new car, it's kinda close. OTOH, if you need to borrow that extra $39K, there's interest to pay. So I do generally agree with your main point: you really need to have $70K cash in your hand to think about it. I'll wait 10 years and (hopefully) buy that Kona for $10K.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2384883 4-Jan-2020 07:16
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frankv:

 

Talkiet:

 

I still think the major barrier to EV takeup is that they are simply too expensive and the Kona is a brilliant example of that. A new petrol Kona is around $31k, a new EV Kona is $70k. Features, comforts, size etc are broadly the same so it's $39k worth of premium to have an EV. You'll get some of that back in maintenance and fuel costs, but over the realistic first purchaser life of the car you're never getting anything like all of it back.

 

 

Actually, with fuel being a quarter the price of petrol, and no RUC, you'll get a *lot* of that back. For me, it would probably take 15 years to get that $39K back. So, *if* I was going to buy a brand new car, it's kinda close. OTOH, if you need to borrow that extra $39K, there's interest to pay. So I do generally agree with your main point: you really need to have $70K cash in your hand to think about it. I'll wait 10 years and (hopefully) buy that Kona for $10K.

 

 

 

 

When RUC is added in 2021 the fuel will be about half that of petrol. The Kona at 31k is a cheap new car. So the EV at 70k is also a cheap new car, except its 70k to buy a cheap new car. You can justify a Tesla if you feel its a premium brand. I cannot tell if its premium or koolaid, that will come out in the wash over time. 


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  #2384884 4-Jan-2020 07:19
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frednz:

 

This is a pity, because from a climate change viewpoint, we do really need to get as many people into EVs as possible.

 

 

Agree. The emission savings for those few buying 70k cars will be less than minuscule. And it seems the used import market wont grow a lot. To me, the hybrids will take centre stage for a decent period of time. Yes they use FF but they use a lot less, so thats where instant gains will occur. Should oil prices go up or down or electricity go up or down, that will change the motivation. 


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Ultimate Geek


  #2385216 4-Jan-2020 22:17
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tdgeek:

 

When RUC is added in 2021 the fuel will be about half that of petrol. The Kona at 31k is a cheap new car. So the EV at 70k is also a cheap new car, except its 70k to buy a cheap new car. You can justify a Tesla if you feel its a premium brand. I cannot tell if its premium or koolaid, that will come out in the wash over time. 

 

 

We don't yet know how RUC will be applied to EVs, just that there will be RUC. It seems quite likely that changes to RUC will also happen at the same time as an EV would end up paying more RUC than a Hybrid, while a Hybrid Plug-In would receive a double hit on RUC under the current structure. So don't do your math around the current RUC structure.

 

The fact that the Tesla Model 3 has eaten into the BMW 3 Series' sales and has outsold them in many markets including the USA seems to imply that yes, it is.


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  #2385281 5-Jan-2020 09:31
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

When RUC is added in 2021 the fuel will be about half that of petrol. The Kona at 31k is a cheap new car. So the EV at 70k is also a cheap new car, except its 70k to buy a cheap new car. You can justify a Tesla if you feel its a premium brand. I cannot tell if its premium or koolaid, that will come out in the wash over time. 

 

 

We don't yet know how RUC will be applied to EVs, just that there will be RUC. It seems quite likely that changes to RUC will also happen at the same time as an EV would end up paying more RUC than a Hybrid, while a Hybrid Plug-In would receive a double hit on RUC under the current structure. So don't do your math around the current RUC structure.

 

The fact that the Tesla Model 3 has eaten into the BMW 3 Series' sales and has outsold them in many markets including the USA seems to imply that yes, it is.

 

 

Current structure? Your assuming that. Or do you know the new structure? No, so you are speculating. If any Govt allowed a double hit they need to disband, thats fundamentally unfair, and counter to reducing emissions. The obvious scenario is that any vehicle that can use electricity should pay RUC by mileage, whether thats full EV or part EV. They then either have a different pump price (easy) or restructure RUC to be all mileage based, not so easy. 


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  #2385282 5-Jan-2020 09:34
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Obraik:

 

 

 

The fact that the Tesla Model 3 has eaten into the BMW 3 Series' sales and has outsold them in many markets including the USA seems to imply that yes, it is.

 

 

I don't see how. Premium or Koolaid? Tesla is like Apple its a koolaid brand. Apple is also premium. Whether Tesla is seen as premium we will see over time. 


 
 
 
 


Lock him up!
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  #2385292 5-Jan-2020 09:59
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

The fact that the Tesla Model 3 has eaten into the BMW 3 Series' sales and has outsold them in many markets including the USA seems to imply that yes, it is.

 

 

I don't see how. Premium or Koolaid? Tesla is like Apple its a koolaid brand. Apple is also premium. Whether Tesla is seen as premium we will see over time. 

 

 

I don't understand the Koolaid reference. Koolaid is just flavoured water, made with some powdered chemicals and lots of sugar. It is a cheap way to give people a cool summer drink, with 'cheap' being the operative word.

 

The term is also used 'jokingly' to reference the 600 people who died by forced suicide at Jonestown. As in, they drank the Koolaid. It may also have other associations by now. What does your use of the word mean?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


639 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2385293 5-Jan-2020 10:00
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tdgeek:

Obraik:


We don't yet know how RUC will be applied to EVs, just that there will be RUC. It seems quite likely that changes to RUC will also happen at the same time as an EV would end up paying more RUC than a Hybrid, while a Hybrid Plug-In would receive a double hit on RUC under the current structure. So don't do your math around the current RUC structure.


The fact that the Tesla Model 3 has eaten into the BMW 3 Series' sales and has outsold them in many markets including the USA seems to imply that yes, it is.



Current structure? Your assuming that. Or do you know the new structure? No, so you are speculating. If any Govt allowed a double hit they need to disband, thats fundamentally unfair, and counter to reducing emissions. The obvious scenario is that any vehicle that can use electricity should pay RUC by mileage, whether thats full EV or part EV. They then either have a different pump price (easy) or restructure RUC to be all mileage based, not so easy. 


I don't think you read what I wrote. If you did you'd have seen that I wrote that we (including me) don't know what's happening with RUC, other than that it's likely changes will happen to it before its introduced to EVs.

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  #2385298 5-Jan-2020 10:17
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Rikkitic:

 

tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

The fact that the Tesla Model 3 has eaten into the BMW 3 Series' sales and has outsold them in many markets including the USA seems to imply that yes, it is.

 

 

I don't see how. Premium or Koolaid? Tesla is like Apple its a koolaid brand. Apple is also premium. Whether Tesla is seen as premium we will see over time. 

 

 

I don't understand the Koolaid reference. Koolaid is just flavoured water, made with some powdered chemicals and lots of sugar. It is a cheap way to give people a cool summer drink, with 'cheap' being the operative word.

 

The term is also used 'jokingly' to reference the 600 people who died by forced suicide at Jonestown. As in, they drank the Koolaid. It may also have other associations by now. What does your use of the word mean?

 

 

 

 

Back in the day Koolaid was referenced for the fanboys that used Apple. IIRC Steve Jobs drunk the brand, so that became the alternate way to describe Apple fanboys. 


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  #2385299 5-Jan-2020 10:17
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Obraik:
tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

We don't yet know how RUC will be applied to EVs, just that there will be RUC. It seems quite likely that changes to RUC will also happen at the same time as an EV would end up paying more RUC than a Hybrid, while a Hybrid Plug-In would receive a double hit on RUC under the current structure. So don't do your math around the current RUC structure.

 

 

 

The fact that the Tesla Model 3 has eaten into the BMW 3 Series' sales and has outsold them in many markets including the USA seems to imply that yes, it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Current structure? Your assuming that. Or do you know the new structure? No, so you are speculating. If any Govt allowed a double hit they need to disband, thats fundamentally unfair, and counter to reducing emissions. The obvious scenario is that any vehicle that can use electricity should pay RUC by mileage, whether thats full EV or part EV. They then either have a different pump price (easy) or restructure RUC to be all mileage based, not so easy. 

 


I don't think you read what I wrote. If you did you'd have seen that I wrote that we (including me) don't know what's happening with RUC, other than that it's likely changes will happen to it before its introduced to EVs.

 

Your right, apologies, read too fast.


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  #2385301 5-Jan-2020 10:24
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What would your opinion be on how best to change RUC to allow a fair slice of roading funds to be spread across all vehicles?


639 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2385308 5-Jan-2020 10:59
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tdgeek:

 

Back in the day Koolaid was referenced for the fanboys that used Apple. IIRC Steve Jobs drunk the brand, so that became the alternate way to describe Apple fanboys. 

 

 

You've recalled incorrectly; it has nothing to do with Steve Jobs drinking the brand. It's as @Rikkitic mentioned, the phrase is derived from Jim Jones convincing his cult to drink kool-aid mixed with poison as a form of mass murder. Using the term has had a number of takes on it since then but generally using "drink the kool-aid" when referencing a product is much the same as saying someone is part of a cult surrounding that product despite it being flawed.

 

tdgeek:

 

What would your opinion be on how best to change RUC to allow a fair slice of roading funds to be spread across all vehicles?

 

 

I think RUC should be renamed to something like EUC: Environment Use Charges. It should have both a road use component and a pollution component. RUC would no longer be included in the cost of fuel and instead all vehicles would pay EUC based on the KM traveled. The pollution component could be done in a number of ways from the simple solution of "if you use this fuel you get charged this multiplier and if you use that fuel you get charged this other multiplier" or it could be based on the cars efficiency ratings similar to how the Clean Cars subsidy is. If something like the latter option was picked then WoFs would also need to include a test that makes sure the vehicle is within a certain range of its efficiency spec. 

 

 


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  #2385311 5-Jan-2020 11:13
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Obraik:

 

 tdgeek:

 

Back in the day Koolaid was referenced for the fanboys that used Apple. IIRC Steve Jobs drunk the brand, so that became the alternate way to describe Apple fanboys. 

 

 

 

You've recalled incorrectly; it has nothing to do with Steve Jobs drinking the brand. It's as @Rikkitic mentioned, the phrase is derived from Jim Jones convincing his cult to drink kool-aid mixed with poison as a form of mass murder. Using the term has had a number of takes on it since then but generally using "drink the kool-aid" when referencing a product is much the same as saying someone is part of a cult surrounding that product despite it being flawed.

 

 

 

 

No. I wasn't referring to cult suicides when I referred to fanboys and Apple. I was referring to fanboys and Apple, Koolaid being well known in that context

 

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2013-sep-01-la-fi-tn-how-steve-jobs-and-apple-turned-technology-into-our-religion-20130829-story.html

 

 


639 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2385316 5-Jan-2020 11:19
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 tdgeek:

 

Back in the day Koolaid was referenced for the fanboys that used Apple. IIRC Steve Jobs drunk the brand, so that became the alternate way to describe Apple fanboys. 

 

 

You've recalled incorrectly; it has nothing to do with Steve Jobs drinking the brand. It's as @Rikkitic mentioned, the phrase is derived from Jim Jones convincing his cult to drink kool-aid mixed with poison as a form of mass murder. Using the term has had a number of takes on it since then but generally using "drink the kool-aid" when referencing a product is much the same as saying someone is part of a cult surrounding that product despite it being flawed.

 

 

No. I wasn't referring to cult suicides when I referred to fanboys and Apple. I was referring to fanboys and Apple, Koolaid being well known in that context

 

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2013-sep-01-la-fi-tn-how-steve-jobs-and-apple-turned-technology-into-our-religion-20130829-story.html

 

 

 

 

You actually are, the phrase "Drink the kool-aid" comes from that event. As the article mentioned, the phrase was used by Jobs when referring to the products followers as a cult, referencing back to Jim Jones convincing his cult to drink his poisoned kool-aid.


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