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542 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2374620 13-Dec-2019 10:57
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dafman:

 

networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

I wouldn't say highly unlikely. 50-60% to erupt in 24 hours. They may be there for a few hours? Well, its been 5 already. I'd say its high risk, it can go at any time, or not at all. Its highly unstable right now.

 

 

Well, you know my position on this. They should be there at all while the Island is in this state.

 

If they come back mostly unharmed, people will use the incorrect logic, that it was worth it, and the right thing to do. I will never agree with that. It's hard. It's cold, but it's the truth.

 

 

Your logic, your truth. No less relevant than others, but not universally shared.

 

In the aftermath of this terrible tragedy, there is understandably a range of views as to what are the right next steps. In the end, its a judgement call that has to be made.

 

And the judgement call they made is one I personally support.

 

 

I agree with today’s recovery while agreeing with @networkn. They have done due diligence as far as reasonable safety is concerned and are now proceeding with caution. Rushing in on the first or following day could have ended in an even greater tragedy. If anything had happened this would have been another load for the families of the victims to bare.

 

We must remember that the rescuers & recovery teams all have families as well.

 

Pike river could have been handled much better… this is not the same situation.





I'm not a complete idiot, I still have some parts missing.


755 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2374621 13-Dec-2019 10:57
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MikeB4:
networkn:

 

MikeB4:

 

The difference between a compassionate society or one that is not. I know what society I want to live in. The incorrect logic argument is a load of BS.

 

 

Nonsense. You are saying the way to be compassionate is to put people in harms way. There are MANY other ways to show compassion, most of them considerably more useful.

 

It's possible to be compassionate AND logical, both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.

 



You are assuming that the police and SAR folk are there against their will. From the ones that I have met over the years they would not hesitate.

 

Neither Police, nor SAR people are on the island.  Only Defence Force teams.

 

And while all those groups "won't hesitate", they also don't blindly throw themselves into harms way without assessing the risk first.





 
 
 
 


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  #2374622 13-Dec-2019 11:02
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You are assuming that the police and SAR folk are there against their will.

 

 

This is absolutely and patently false.

 

 


542 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2374624 13-Dec-2019 11:04
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networkn:

 

 

You are assuming that the police and SAR folk are there against their will.

 

 

This is absolutely and patently false.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Willing S&R can be killed just as easliy as forced S&R.

 

 





I'm not a complete idiot, I still have some parts missing.


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  #2374626 13-Dec-2019 11:09
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geoffwnz:

 

MikeB4:
networkn:

 

MikeB4:

 

The difference between a compassionate society or one that is not. I know what society I want to live in. The incorrect logic argument is a load of BS.

 

 

Nonsense. You are saying the way to be compassionate is to put people in harms way. There are MANY other ways to show compassion, most of them considerably more useful.

 

It's possible to be compassionate AND logical, both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.

 



You are assuming that the police and SAR folk are there against their will. From the ones that I have met over the years they would not hesitate.

 

Neither Police, nor SAR people are on the island.  Only Defence Force teams.

 

And while all those groups "won't hesitate", they also don't blindly throw themselves into harms way without assessing the risk first.

 

 

Of course military don't go blindly and I NEVER said they would, I am part of a military family. They plan, brief, execute, evaluate. That DOES NOT say they would hesitate about going. By SAR I meant the military personnel that were there as that is the role they are doing. Also Deodar was stationed at the Island during the recovery where the "wharf" is located. SAR = Search And Recovery





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


34 posts

Geek


  #2374631 13-Dec-2019 11:15
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No one is forcing individuals go - There is plenty who are happy to go by choice.
The current plan reduces the time on the island to a 'bare minimum' & has a prompt evac route.
Which significantly reduces the risk.

If the individuals believe the risk is worth it, to bring the bodies home & give closure to the families - We should not be stopping them.

Indeed they may be at more risk, driving home on the road after......



9264 posts

Uber Geek


  #2374632 13-Dec-2019 11:16
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concordnz: No one is forcing individuals go - There is plenty who are happy to go by choice.
The current plan reduces the time on the island to a 'bare minimum' & has a prompt evac route.
Which significantly reduces the risk.

If the individuals believe the risk is worth it, to bring the bodies home & give closure to the families - We should not be stopping them.

Indeed they may be at more risk, driving home on the road after......

 

I presume that's a joke - right?


 
 
 
 


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  #2374640 13-Dec-2019 11:34
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networkn:

tdgeek:


I wouldn't say highly unlikely. 50-60% to erupt in 24 hours. They may be there for a few hours? Well, its been 5 already. I'd say its high risk, it can go at any time, or not at all. Its highly unstable right now.



Well, you know my position on this. They shouldn't be there at all while the Island is in this state.


If they come back mostly unharmed, people will use the incorrect logic, that it was worth it, and the right thing to do. I will never agree with that. It's hard. It's cold, but it's the truth.


 


 



And I agree fully. That the authorities are pressured to go there really tells us what alert 2 means. A few days ago alert 2 was fine as they boarded the tour. Alert 2 is within our safety margin the operator said. Time caught up and 8+ now have to pay for it

1298 posts

Uber Geek


  #2374649 13-Dec-2019 11:50
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https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/live-recovery-teams-land-whakaari-white-island-in-mission-retrieve-victims-bodies

 

From the above:

 

Six of the bodies on Whakaari-White Island have successfully been recovered and taken to the waiting HMSNZ Wellington, ready to be taken back to the mainland.

 

Local helicopter pilots weren't the only ones keen to jump in and help retrieve the bodies - a group of fishermen were also ready to take matters into their own hands.

 

Mick Brown, owner of Club Talk Charters and friend of missing tour guide Hayden Marshall-Inman, told RNZ they were warned about the dangers by police in a private briefing.

 

"They're saying now that the island is that gassy that you could have one breath and it could either kill you or wreck your body system forever, so we've just got to wait and pray that they get them off with all the decent breathing apparatus."

 

 

 

 


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  #2374779 13-Dec-2019 14:00
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Seems strange that if you want to watch live the Police and Defence Force media briefing following the recovery, you have to resort to the ABC News Australia stream, because no NZ television channel is broadcasting it.


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  #2374781 13-Dec-2019 14:01
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allan:

 

Seems strange that if you want to watch live the Police and Defence Force media briefing following the recovery, you have to resort to the ABC News Australia stream, because no NZ television channel is broadcasting it.

 

 

Have to resort to livestreams from TVNZ and Newshub to watch it here, I'd imagine if TVNZ7 still existed then they would carry it live


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#2374796 13-Dec-2019 14:40
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I'm glad to hear they've recovered the six bodies where their location was known. Two more are still being searched for. Best of luck to our brave defence force people as they go about this sad task.


gzt

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  #2374805 13-Dec-2019 14:45
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This is a bit different from instant response rescue. This team will have tonnes of gear, multiple contingency and survival plans. This team will have made careful decisions based on risk and mitigation.

Ie; not becaue they have to do it hell or high water as some seem to think.

Mad Scientist
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  #2374807 13-Dec-2019 14:48
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DarthKermit:

I'm glad to hear they've recovered the six bodies where their location was known. Two more are still being searched for. Best of luck to our brave defence force people as they go about this sad task.

I hear the volcano has released the tourists but is going to keep the guides.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #2374808 13-Dec-2019 14:49
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gzt: This is a bit different from instant response rescue. This team will have tonnes of gear, multiple contingency and survival plans. This team will have made careful decisions based on risk and mitigation.

Ie; not becaue they have to do it hell or high water as some seem to think.

 

No matter what equipment they have, how well prepared they are, or how many plans they made, they are STILL going to be safer if the Island has less volcanic activity.

 

I see they are planning an aerial search to find the remaining 2 bodies unaccounted for, I am curious why they wouldn't use unmanned drones for this, controlled from a boat a relatively safe distance from the island for example? That's mostly curiosity more than criticism.

 

 


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