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1556 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2377526 18-Dec-2019 10:52
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No see PR bloke knows more than the SAS/Geonet/Police because 


826 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2377536 18-Dec-2019 11:11
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I wonder where the body of the chap who was moved ended up? I recall he was moved from out of a stream to a safer place. Could the stream have swollen and washed him out to sea? Or did he roll/move back into the stream.


 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek

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  # 2377678 18-Dec-2019 12:34
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Police have admitted they may never locate the last two bodies. They're having a press conference at 2pm today.


30 posts

Geek


  # 2377740 18-Dec-2019 13:01
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It would take quite a bit of rain to 'float' a body out to sea - & I don't recall much rain in the area till after the recovery visit.
From my previous visits - it's not like there is a 'river' to the sea - the water went down through the rocks - so would not carry a body.

It's quite likely the body is covered in Ash, and unfortunately the sulphuric Acid & chorides in the crater will dissolve the body quite quickly.

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  # 2377786 18-Dec-2019 13:56
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GV27:

 

Technofreak:

 

GV27:

 

Good piece here:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118237273/whakaariwhite-island-criticising-experts-in-the-wake-of-tragedy

 

 

What that above linked article doesn't mention was one of the helicopter pilots had moved his mate (one of the still missing victims) to a safer position and made him more comfortable before flying back to the mainland with some of the other survivors. This pilot was stopped by the authorities from going back to get his mate. Now he is missing possibly never to be found. I would be absolutely devastated if I were that pilot. When the inevitable enquiry is held I hope there is some questions asked about this.

 

Another very good article here. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118219897/after-whakaariwhite-island-its-up-to-us-to-save-ourselves

 

 

"OPINION: The tragedy at Whakaari/White Island last week exposed a growing institutional cowardice among emergency services, particularly police, that affects their usefulness to citizens."

 

What this article fails to mention is that this advocates putting lives in danger in order to save precisely zero lives. If that's cowardice then I guess I'm fine with the police and others being cowards if there are no lives at stake. 

 

Maybe some people should remember that the SAS of all people couldn't get the job done 'in 20 minutes' with extremely specialised equipment and any such attempt would have almost certainly resulted in further fatalities or rescue efforts being needed.

 

 

I agree, nothing worse than an armchair expert. That said, after reading the article it did beg the question, if the helicopter and tourist boat volunteers had not responded heroically as they did immediately after the eruption, what would have been the fate of the survivors on the island? Would emergency services gone out?


1556 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2377801 18-Dec-2019 14:31
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dafman:

 

I agree, nothing worse than an armchair expert. That said, after reading the article it did beg the question, if the helicopter and tourist boat volunteers had not responded heroically as they did immediately after the eruption, what would have been the fate of the survivors on the island? Would emergency services gone out?

 

 

Why does it beg the question though? That was never a scenario that played out. 

 

If you're asking "were the people clearly waiting on the wharf and visible by helicopter not collected by those helicopters & boats, would they have been rescued?" then the answer is pretty obviously 'yes'. 


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  # 2377807 18-Dec-2019 15:07
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GV27:

 

dafman:

 

I agree, nothing worse than an armchair expert. That said, after reading the article it did beg the question, if the helicopter and tourist boat volunteers had not responded heroically as they did immediately after the eruption, what would have been the fate of the survivors on the island? Would emergency services gone out?

 

 

Why does it beg the question though? That was never a scenario that played out. 

 

If you're asking "were the people clearly waiting on the wharf and visible by helicopter not collected by those helicopters & boats, would they have been rescued?" then the answer is pretty obviously 'yes'. 

 

 

On reflection, of course you are right, those on the wharf would have clearly been rescued. Would emergency services moved beyond the wharf into the crater area to check for survivors? Probably, yes.


 
 
 
 


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Geek


  # 2377814 18-Dec-2019 15:23
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Not necessarily,
The emergency services in this "day & age" - would have had to get a chopper to fly out & double check the people on the wharf were still there/alive then get clearance & have exit plans & risk assessments before proceeding.

With the severity of the injuries it is likely nobody would have got off alive if the boat hadn't returned & the locals hadn't flown out, before the emergency services got involved.

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  # 2377815 18-Dec-2019 15:23
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In reply to dafman:

 

If they [emergency services]had gone in, they might well have died from the same conditions that killed the other people.

 

Our typical emergency services police, fire, ambulance do not have the highly specalised equipment needed to keep them safe during an eruption. The people who went in on Friday were pushed beyond their limits even with the eruption having died down.


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Ultimate Geek


  # 2377823 18-Dec-2019 15:41
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concordnz: Not necessarily,
The emergency services in this "day & age" - would have had to get a chopper to fly out & double check the people on the wharf were still there/alive then get clearance & have exit plans & risk assessments before proceeding.

With the severity of the injuries it is likely nobody would have got off alive if the boat hadn't returned & the locals hadn't flown out, before the emergency services got involved.

 

It would be really nice if the armchair "experts" could just STFU for once.  You weren't there, you weren't part of the response, it wasn't your life on the line, you have no idea.

 

NZ's emergency services are stretched far beyond what is reasonable, day in, day out.  And a large number of them are volunteers.  They go above and beyond what is fair or reasonable working conditions, and they return each day or shift and do it all over again despite being attacked, assaulted, picked on, second guessed by armchair experts and having everything they do scrutinised for the slightest hint of something wrong despite being exhausted at the end of the 4th day of 12 hour shifts.

 

Throwing out BS like you just did is totally out of line.  I really hope that you never find yourself in a situation where you are in need of their services.





30 posts

Geek


  # 2377832 18-Dec-2019 15:49
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Geoff,
Your response is the one out of line.

I've previously worked in Emergency Response, so I have first hand experience and knowledge.

I also know the pressures and under resource the services are under,
& carrying the nightmares of what you have seen and treated.

DarthKermit is right - & is precisely the reason emergency personell would have been prevented going, & delayed until their safety was somewhat assured.

1556 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2377836 18-Dec-2019 16:01
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concordnz: 

 

DarthKermit is right - & is precisely the reason emergency personell would have been prevented going, & delayed until their safety was somewhat assured.

 

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to compare the response with zero lives at stake (i.e. a recovery) as an indicator of what would happened if it was an actual rescue scenario. 

 

They knew fairly early on Day One there was unlikely to be any more survivors - they had that information from the helicopter pilots/bystanders.

 

It's not to say they would have been reckless in going, but I'm pretty sure they would have gone one way or the other. 


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  # 2377902 18-Dec-2019 18:23
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GV27:

 

Maybe some people should remember that the SAS of all people couldn't get the job done 'in 20 minutes' with extremely specialised equipment and any such attempt would have almost certainly resulted in further fatalities or rescue efforts being needed.

 

 

The fact that two helicopter pilots were able to go and rescue several people without specialist safety equipment immediately after the eruption also tells me something. The fact one of them was prevented from going back to get his mate who was alive the last time the pilot saw him is very very sad.





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
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3398 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2377904 18-Dec-2019 18:40
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dafman:

 

I agree, nothing worse than an armchair expert. That said, after reading the article it did beg the question, if the helicopter and tourist boat volunteers had not responded heroically as they did immediately after the eruption, what would have been the fate of the survivors on the island? Would emergency services gone out?

 

 

Good question. From reading the article I linked it would seem there was certainly some doubt about them going.

 

Armchair expert? Possibly and then again possibly not. I rather suspect he has put into writing, the thoughts and comments of some of those pilots (perhaps all of) who carried out the rescue immediately after the eruption. Remember these guys also have expertise in operating on White Island.

 

From some of the comments I have read in various news items both here in New Zealand and overseas publications there have been very guarded comments made by some of those pilots. These comments indicate a fair degree of dissatisfaction with the way the police and other authorities handled the situation.





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Nokia N1
Dell Inspiron 14z i5


2753 posts

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  # 2377905 18-Dec-2019 18:41
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Technofreak:

GV27:


Maybe some people should remember that the SAS of all people couldn't get the job done 'in 20 minutes' with extremely specialised equipment and any such attempt would have almost certainly resulted in further fatalities or rescue efforts being needed.



The fact that two helicopter pilots were able to go and rescue several people without specialist safety equipment immediately after the eruption also tells me something. The fact one of them was prevented from going back to get his mate who was alive the last time the pilot saw him is very very sad.



He may be sad but he is still alive. Just because he was able to do it once doesn't correlate that he could do it again.


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