I am with @geoffwnz This thread has turned into a disgrace. Maybe it would be timely to close it 

I don't know enough to comment on this and I fully support the observation about our overstretched emergency service people. The only thing I want to say is I vividly remember an incident a few years ago, where a dairy owner was injured during an armed robbery and the emergency responders let him bleed out though he was clearly alive because they didn't dare enter the shop until they could be certain that the danger had passed. I no longer recall the exact details but I do remember that I found this very remarkable at the time.

Yeah, might be time to close it. Most of the news about this has played out. There might be a few more deaths yet. They might find one or both of the missing.

Technofreak:

 

GV27:

 

Maybe some people should remember that the SAS of all people couldn't get the job done 'in 20 minutes' with extremely specialised equipment and any such attempt would have almost certainly resulted in further fatalities or rescue efforts being needed.

 

 

The fact that two helicopter pilots were able to go and rescue several people without specialist safety equipment immediately after the eruption also tells me something. The fact one of them was prevented from going back to get his mate who was alive the last time the pilot saw him is very very sad.

 

The fact you aren't a geologist should tell you something. The fact an erupting volcano is a dynamic environment should tell you something. The fact it took Geonet about a week to get decent info to figure out how many vents were open, where they were and what they were doing should tell you something.

Yes it is sad, but there's plenty of instances where bystanders have stepped into a dangerous situation to do something heroic. It doesn't mean they know more about crisis response than police or emergency services or qualified academics.

Close this thread. I'll open another all-purpose Geology one if something interesting happens. 

MikeB4:

I am with @geoffwnz This thread has turned into a disgrace. Maybe it would be timely to close it 

MikeB4:

 

I am with @geoffwnz This thread has turned into a disgrace. Maybe it would be timely to close it 

 

In my opinion geoffwnz was out of line with his comments.

GV27:

 

The fact you aren't a geologist should tell you something. The fact an erupting volcano is a dynamic environment should tell you something. The fact it took Geonet about a week to get decent info to figure out how many vents were open, where they were and what they were doing should tell you something.

 

Yes it is sad, but there's plenty of instances where bystanders have stepped into a dangerous situation to do something heroic. It doesn't mean they know more about crisis response than police or emergency services or qualified academics.

 

Close this thread. I'll open another all-purpose Geology one if something interesting happens. 

 

I know they're not geologists nor volcanologists but the pilots that rescued those people were the people with the most up to date information on what was happening on the Island, they had just been out there. I know that doesn't make them crisis response experts either, but on the other hand they're not just someone who rocked up without any knowledge about White Island. They were locals with experience of operating onto White Island and were prepared to go back knowing the conditions. 

It seems that with increasing regularity the qualified academics slow down and or prevent action being taken in a timely manner. There are several examples of that in recent times. If you take the Pike River disaster the mining experts said the safest time to go back in was within a certain time frame and they were prepared to do so. People without their expertise over rode them and prevented them going back in.

To be fair to those making these decisions, I think it's the rules which they have to work under that are the problem and hamstring them rather than any particular individuals being the roadblock.

I got the distinct impression that the Police Minister wasn't going to have a Pike River MKII and put pressure on action taking place. If this is what happened I don't agree with this approach just as I don't agree with over riding the mining experts.

Finally, I know of one disaster where the "bystanders" (who were trained first responders) were told they couldn't respond to an incident which was virtually right in front of them as the incident controller didn't believe they could/should be involved. There was loss of life that wouldn't have happened if they had been dispatched. Even worse than that the whole bungling of the rescue was then covered up by the powers that be. So please forgive me if I seem a bit harsh with respect to the way some emergencies have been handled.

concordnz: It would take quite a bit of rain to 'float' a body out to sea - & I don't recall much rain in the area till after the recovery visit.
From my previous visits - it's not like there is a 'river' to the sea - the water went down through the rocks - so would not carry a body.

It's quite likely the body is covered in Ash, and unfortunately the sulphuric Acid & chorides in the crater will dissolve the body quite quickly.

They talked about this event this afternoon. Close to 40mm of rain was estimated to have fallen within a very short period on Monday night and a mudslide did occur on the island which was picked up. The belief is the stream created this mudslide and took the body with it.

Remember one body was seen near the wharf on Tuesday floating in the sea but couldn't be retrieved.

concordnz: It would take quite a bit of rain to 'float' a body out to sea - & I don't recall much rain in the area till after the recovery visit.
From my previous visits - it's not like there is a 'river' to the sea - the water went down through the rocks - so would not carry a body.

It's quite likely the body is covered in Ash, and unfortunately the sulphuric Acid & chorides in the crater will dissolve the body quite quickly.

Apparently the police/navy divers saw a body in the water which they are sure was the missing guide. For some reason* they seem confident the other missing person is also in the water.

*Edit: That reason would seem is a mudslide that happened Monday night.

Technofreak:

 

concordnz: It would take quite a bit of rain to 'float' a body out to sea - & I don't recall much rain in the area till after the recovery visit.
From my previous visits - it's not like there is a 'river' to the sea - the water went down through the rocks - so would not carry a body.

It's quite likely the body is covered in Ash, and unfortunately the sulphuric Acid & chorides in the crater will dissolve the body quite quickly.

 

Apparently the police/navy divers saw a body in the water which they are sure was the missing guide. For some reason* they seem confident the other missing person is also in the water.

 

 

 

*Edit: That reason would seem is a mudslide that happened Monday night.

 

 

 

if you read that on the news then it's what the journalists say.

rule number 1 don't believe everything the journalists say as accuracy is not important.

Technofreak:

 

GV27:

 

The fact you aren't a geologist should tell you something. The fact an erupting volcano is a dynamic environment should tell you something. The fact it took Geonet about a week to get decent info to figure out how many vents were open, where they were and what they were doing should tell you something.

 

Yes it is sad, but there's plenty of instances where bystanders have stepped into a dangerous situation to do something heroic. It doesn't mean they know more about crisis response than police or emergency services or qualified academics.

 

Close this thread. I'll open another all-purpose Geology one if something interesting happens. 

 

 

I know they're not geologists nor volcanologists but the pilots that rescued those people were the people with the most up to date information on what was happening on the Island, they had just been out there. I know that doesn't make them crisis response experts but on the other hand they're not just someone who rocked up without any knowledge about White Island. They were locals with experience of operating onto White Island and were prepared to go back knowing the conditions. 

 

It seems that with increasing regularity the qualified academics slow down and or prevent action being taken in a timely manner. There are several examples of that in recent times. If you take the Pike River disaster the mining experts said the safest time to go back in was within a certain time frame and they were prepared to do so. People without their expertise over rode them and prevented them going back in.

 

To be fair to those making these decisions, I think it's the rules which they have to work under that are the problem and hamstring them rather than any particular individuals being the roadblock.

 

I got the distinct impression that the Police Minister wasn't going to have a Pike River MKII and put pressure on action taking place. If this is what happened I don't agree with this approach just as I don't agree with over riding the mining experts.

 

Finally, I know of one disaster where the "bystanders" (who were trained first responders) were told they couldn't respond to an incident which was virtually right in front of them as the incident controller didn't believe they could/should be involved. There was loss of life that wouldn't have happened if they had been dispatched. Even worse than that the whole bungling of the rescue was then covered up by the powers that be. So please forgive me if I seem a bit harsh with respect to the way some emergencies have been handled.

 

The Pike River example is a good one. The mining "experts" were clueless about the toxic atmosphere as they did not have the full story. Frankly "experts"who are basically just talking heads with actual knowledge of the situation are at best pointless and more likely destructive.

Equally I am dubious of your story as you are not providing anything evidence or even naming the event. 

Technofreak:

 

GV27:

 

Maybe some people should remember that the SAS of all people couldn't get the job done 'in 20 minutes' with extremely specialised equipment and any such attempt would have almost certainly resulted in further fatalities or rescue efforts being needed.

 

 

The fact that two helicopter pilots were able to go and rescue several people without specialist safety equipment immediately after the eruption also tells me something. The fact one of them was prevented from going back to get his mate who was alive the last time the pilot saw him is very very sad.

 

It is very very sad. 

It is an eruption, who knows what is happening or might happen.Do we legalise vigilantes from now on? There is no doubt that vigilantes can save extra lives, but over time, what wins? Reckless vigilantes who beat the odds or calculated recovery/rescue by experts?

Handle9:

 

The Pike River example is a good one. The mining "experts" were clueless about the toxic atmosphere as they did not have the full story. Frankly "experts"who are basically just talking heads with actual knowledge of the situation are at best pointless and more likely destructive.

 

Equally I am dubious of your story as you are not providing anything evidence or even naming the event. 

 

source please..

GV27:

 

"OPINION: The tragedy at Whakaari/White Island last week exposed a growing institutional cowardice among emergency services, particularly police, that affects their usefulness to citizens."

 

Actually, I was gratified to see that at least one police commander had the balls to say that they *were* going ahead with the recovery, despite the institutional cowardice which said that the operation should be put off until it was "safe". An extremely courageous move on his part... if there had been any eruption during the recovery, his job would have been toast.

Handle9:

 

The Pike River example is a good one. The mining "experts" were clueless about the toxic atmosphere as they did not have the full story. Frankly "experts"who are basically just talking heads with actual knowledge of the situation are at best pointless and more likely destructive.

 

Equally I am dubious of your story as you are not providing anything evidence or even naming the event. 

 

I think the Mines Rescue guys that were at Pike River would be slightly upset to be called clueless.

The event I mentioned happened over 20 years ago and the last time I discussed it with anyone was over 10 years ago plus I had no direct involvement. My recollection of the event was a bit hazy. Hence the generic description, as when I wrote that post I could not be remember exactly how things unfolded.

Last night and this morning I have revisited the information I have on this event. As it turns out I wasn’t quite correct on one point however this doesn’t materially change what I said in my post earlier.

The event to which I referred was the ditching of a Cessna 402 in Foveaux Strait in 1998. The Riverton Coastguard knew where the ditched aircraft was and were prepared to launch a rescue immediately. They were prevented from dispatching at that time. At this stage all ten occupants were still alive and had successfully exited the aircraft. 

It wasn’t till much later in the SAR process that Riverton Coastguard were dispatched and successfully rescued five of the occupants from the sea, all suffering from hypothermia. However due to the delay in dispatching them, the other five occupants had perished from hypothermia.

The rescue was bungled and the bungling was covered up. While the coroner’s report makes criticism of the SAR process and mentions a 10 minute delay caused by a confused communication controller there is no mention anywhere of the major bungling in not dispatching the Riverton Coastguard promptly.

People I know of who were directly involved have been very critical of the Police and SAR authorities for the way they managed this incident and the cover up that followed.