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  # 2381915 27-Dec-2019 18:01
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blackjack17:

 

nakedmolerat: None.

Enjoy everything about them.

4 and more to come.

The only regret I have was to start family later in life. I feel like early 20s is the best age to start family.

 

 

 

I hate this. People that say that there is nothing to hate about your kids or to cherish it as you miss it (Stockholm syndrome?)

 

 

 

I have walked away after fighting to change a nappy shaking, needing distance from the being that made it so difficult.

 

Picking up the same books/duplo/lego/toys off the floor several times in a day knowing you are going to have to do the same the next day.  Fighting the instinct not to throw it all in the bin

 

Having meal after meal being screamed at for some reason or rather.

 

Dropping your kids off at childcare happy that you won't have to see them until 5.30

 

...

 

 

 

 

I think its the fear of homicidal tendencies that most parents feel at some time or another. That moment of I cannot take another ..... and realizing you might just understand how someone can snap and hurt their kid.

 

Kids are able to bring out the very worst (as well as the very best) in you and often to get to the very best you have to wade through the very worst and overcome it.

 

 

 

 





nunz

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  # 2381931 27-Dec-2019 18:33
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nunz:

I hate the  impact on my self esteem. I can always see where I am messing things up (my kids mirror my faults) , they push my buttons sooo quickly (my kids remind me of my faults) and I find myself being the person I dont want to be (copying my parents faults). But my kids are turning out alright despite me. Maybe got something right somewhere along the line.


 


However the rest of the world seems to thing I am a bad person as I will:



  • Raise my voice when speaking quietly fails

  • Tell my children they got it wrong - when they got it wrong - then help them get it right - when they need to be coached into adulthood.

  • Let my children make choices that might end up hurting them (15yo son has a girl friend arrgghh!!!)

  • Don't let my children make choices - that might badly hurt them in ways other people think is acceptable (zero social media and violent video games in our house).

  • Expect my children to show deference and respect to elders and 'betters'

  • Apply both carrot and stick where necessary.

  • Expect children to adhere to my values / standards while living in my house


 


Was at a community event the other day and a pack (6) of year 7/8 kids were effing and blinding and starting a scrap. When a guy in his 50's said, 'hey - settle it down there's kids and families here' the pack turned on him - rude, foul, abusive. I stepped up and told them to pull their heads in - its an adult and human they are talking to. One of the little dipsticks stepped into my face and suggested I should hit him - as there was a policeman 20 metres away. What a walking Darwin award. I'm almost twice his weight and breathing on him would have caused serious injury.


In the 'good old days' a swift kick up the rear would have sorted him out and gently taught him some survival sense. As it is he thinks he is invincible and one day will do the same thing to someone who will flatten him. That's very likely to end up in the hospital or morgue.


 


I hate being a parent in a world where political correctness and making rules for the minority, end up screwing the majority of us, is in place.


 


 



The world needs more people like you




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2381973 27-Dec-2019 20:25
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I think the anti-smacking law can be seriously misconstrued sometimes. My Mum smacked my sister and I when were naughty (and when we deserved) but because of some washed-up former Green MP who had great success never laying a hand on her daughter, we all have to follow her example and apply it to all our kids when they're naughty...but I thought the anti-smacking law was about preventing child abuse, not stopping a parent from giving their kid a clip around the ear when they deserved it.

 

Or have I misunderstood it (probably)?

 

Re the $90, we can spend it on whatever we want, but it has to be renewed every few years. Sadly neither my wife nor I have any family nearby to assist with watching my boys, otherwise that is most definitely an avenue I would be pursuing on a regular basis.


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  # 2382001 27-Dec-2019 22:02
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quickymart:

 

I think the anti-smacking law can be seriously misconstrued sometimes. My Mum smacked my sister and I when were naughty (and when we deserved) but because of some washed-up former Green MP who had great success never laying a hand on her daughter, we all have to follow her example and apply it to all our kids when they're naughty...but I thought the anti-smacking law was about preventing child abuse, not stopping a parent from giving their kid a clip around the ear when they deserved it.

 

Or have I misunderstood it (probably)?

 

Re the $90, we can spend it on whatever we want, but it has to be renewed every few years. Sadly neither my wife nor I have any family nearby to assist with watching my boys, otherwise that is most definitely an avenue I would be pursuing on a regular basis.

 

 

 

 

The problem with the anti-smacking law is it was designed to supposedly stop child abuse but no serious guidelines were put in place to define what is a smack, or inappropriate force or even really what force is. Tapping a kid with 1 finger on the shoulder can be considered abuse.

 

The anti-smacking law has not done anything to curb the issues of child abuse. Statistically we are in a worse situation now than when it was put in place. Possibly because it was put in place.  Children have become aware of it and use it to tie up parents, teachers etc from taking actions other than words - which they can ignore.

 

On a positive note I think it has forced us to look at how we discipline kids, find some more creative alternatives rather than just lash out - but there are times when physical is the best / only / most appropriate response.

 

--an aside --

 

At the time it was being considered i did a teachers college course looking at moral  / belief systems. They looked at Kohlberg ( https://courses.lumenlearning.com/teachereducationx92x1/chapter/kohlbergs-stages-of-moral-development/ ) who said most people at three stages of moral learning - kind of like three steps going up. Each step had two halves (deintological / hedonisitc) One is law / rule bound the other is more pleasure / self seeking.  Progress requires a greater level of abstract thinking.

 

Step One - Pain / Pleasure.    Will this action hurt me or help me?  

 

Step Two - Law and order / rules . What would a good person in our society do? What is the rule?

 

Stage three - Beyond law - moral imperative to break the law for a higher good.

 

 

 

I believe there is a stage four - but when I asked the lecturer he declined to tell me as he was ticked off that I, a dumb and slow thinking teachers college trained student, was asking questions his bright and intelligent / thinking uni students hadn't picked up on. I suspect it is probably love but never looked into it.

 

 

 

Most people don't progress to stage three - limited up to law and order (stage two)  at best. Most of us often work at stage one. E.g. I am not going to speed as there might be a cop around the corner (pain)  or I wont take this there are cameras and I might get caught (pain) or she's bang-able and my wife wont know so lets go for it (pleasure)

 

Few of us go beyond - example: People breaking the law (stage 2) and risking imprisonment / fines (pain / stage 1) to protest the springbok tour as there is a higher cause at play (stage 3).

 

I would suspect altruism might be stage 4. No higher cause but a willingness to do what is not required for anothers good.

 

--end aside --

 

Getting back to the topic ... oops.  Children according to Kohlberg arent abstract thinkers and don't have the mental acuity to do stage three, need to be trained into stage 2. and that leaves stage 1. Avoidance of pain is a greater motivator than pleasure.   Pain / pleasure should be given as close to the event as possible. The closer stimuli follows an event or action the more likely it is to influence behaviour (reinforce or deter)

 

Logically what t/col taught me is belting a kid is the best methods to teach moral development (tasers and similar being illegal and all that). However try saying that in court.

 

 

 

There are times physical discipline is necessary. I would rather smack my child for attempting to touch an electric socket, after they disobey me-  and before touching the socket, than try to reason with them as the get all crispy crittered on me. touch that and you will feel pain - look the pain is in your butt and if you think that hurt try touching the socket - its really got a smack to it.

 

Pain teaches better than just about anything else. i belted my thumbs with enough hammers to make me both more talented and more concentrating than any amount of book learning ever did.

 

But our modern society is intensely invested in avoiding pain (death, age, hard work, responsibility etc) and expects us to reason with an unformed / immature, brain that cant take in a clear lesson (but thats enough about teenagers).

 

A grand mother got prosecuted for grabbing her grandsons collar and dragging him backwards off the road when he stepped in front of an oncoming car - wasn't looking.   i did that to my autistic son - got him by the school bag and lifted his feet off the ground hauling him out of the path of a car he didnt see. I didnt get prosecuted as no one saw me. But I could have.

 

The smacking law needs a lot more work and some serious definition and more importantly a large dose of common sense. Or to be scrapped -

 

 

 

Opinion - as if the above isn't....

 

Anti smacking came into law 2007

 

There has been extensive research undertaken in New Zealand regarding the reasons behind child abuse and understanding the factors behind it is crucial to addressing this problem. In the study by the Ministry of Development in December 2010 the study commented that the main causes of child abuse within New Zealand were due to substance abuse, as well as poor parenting practices through generations.[5]

 

Poverty is also highly causal in the issue of child abuse - probably stress related.

 

In the 2013 financial year compared with 2012 there was an increase in child abuse reports as well as substantive findings.[3]  This has continued.

 

The anti smacking law does not address the cause of child abuse but seeks to punish rather than rehabilitate or support.  it also does not define abuse - leaving non abusive parents open to prosecution.

 

 

 

A family first report 2016 states:

 

According to the report, notifications of abuse to Child, Youth and Family have increased "more than six-fold" since 2001, while rates of neglect and ill-treatment of children have increased by 45 per cent since the law change.

 

The report says research has shown that banning smacking can undermine "appropriate parental discipline", leading to more boys growing up with "a dangerous combination of disrespect for their mothers and a lack of self-control".

 

Family first are an interest group - and possibly the incidences of reporting increased as awareness grew. However hard statistics from hospitals, medical reporting etc show a growing level of violence towards children that has not been slowed or stopped by the law.

 

 

 

In 2009 - two years after the law:

 

Thirty-nine reports of smacking have been recorded since the law change in 2007 and 189 cases of minor physical discipline. Reports of other forms of physical discipline were down from 39 early this year to 10.

 

The number of police prosecutions for smacking remains at one, and there have been 14 cases of minor physical discipline resulting in prosecution. (NZ police statistics) -

 

Note 14 prosecutions for minor physical disipline ( not abuse) were given. The police and courts became the arbitrators of what is appropriate at a given time, for a given child, in a given situation - not the parents who know the child best.

 

The law criminalised minor physical discipline - not just abuse.

 

There has been a big rise in the number of reports and convictions for assault on a child under 14 years. The number of recorded complaints of assault rose 69 per cent between 2006 and 2008, from 845 to 1429, and the number of convictions rose 64 per cent, from 158 to 259.

 

There has also been a big rise in notifications to Child, Youth and Family for suspected cases of child abuse – up from 71,927 to 110,797 between 2006 and last year.

 

Substantiated cases of abuse were up from 2274 to 2855 over the same period, but Mr Hughes said that did not mean more people were being dobbed in for smacking since most of the increase had been referrals from police.

 

The ministry was at a loss to know why the rise had happened,   - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3054130/Anti-smacking-law-not-to-blame?rm=m

 

 

 

2015:

 

---------

 

Forty-six prosecutions have been brought for "minor acts of discipline" – another eight were brought for "smacking" on the buttocks or legs.

 

None of the smacking charges involved "smacking children around the head or face".

 

 

 

2016

 

---------

 

Police stats show there has been a 136 per cent increase in physical abuse, 43 per cent increase in sexual abuse, 45 per cent increase in neglect or ill-treatment of children, and 71 child abuse deaths since the law was passed. CYF have had more than one million notifications of abuse and there has been a 42 per cent increase in physical abuse found since 2007.

 

 

 

9 years after the law changed the rat eof abuse still climbs - as does prosecution nad investigation of ' good parents'.

 

 

 

Hope this summary helps understand the act.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





nunz

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  # 2382045 28-Dec-2019 07:34
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Please, please, please can we just not go back over this same territory, given I recall it was done to death at the time the bill was being debated and afterwards, and I’m pretty sure some of the same folk were similarly, shall we say, focused on it then.


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  # 2382047 28-Dec-2019 07:44
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I didn't have children when the bill was introduced but it didn't affect me so didn't really care or pay much attention. Now I do and it impacts me, so I figure it can't hurt to have a better understanding of how it works.


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  # 2382048 28-Dec-2019 07:58
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Then perhaps do some research of your own, as you're not getting neutral advice, but the view from someone with a particular pre-held view presenting material to support this.

I'm also just not sure this is the place for this discussion, as posts like that above call for an alternative view to be presented, but that also is not appropriate as it'll derail the thread.

 
 
 
 


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  # 2382068 28-Dec-2019 09:25
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jonathan18: Then perhaps do some research of your own, as you're not getting neutral advice, but the view from someone with a particular pre-held view presenting material to support this.

I'm also just not sure this is the place for this discussion, as posts like that above call for an alternative view to be presented, but that also is not appropriate as it'll derail the thread.


New topic created here for the AS bill and also positive ideas for child discipline: https://www.geekzone.co.nz//forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=261990

As a thought. No advice is neutral. Everyone has a lens. Also as less than 12% of NZers support the bill getting an alt view might be difficult. Enjoy the new topic.




nunz

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  # 2382072 28-Dec-2019 09:45
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nunz:

As a thought. No advice is neutral. Everyone has a lens. Also as less than 12% of NZers support the bill getting an alt view might be difficult. Enjoy the new topic.

 

Yep, fair enough; it's just that it's also quite useful to have an idea of the particular lens of the writer; for example, going by earlier posts my reading is that you're a hardline Christian, which clearly and strongly influences your views on this particular matter, is far from immaterial in how one reads and interprets your posts.


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  # 2382124 28-Dec-2019 12:27
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jonathan18:

 

nunz:

As a thought. No advice is neutral. Everyone has a lens. Also as less than 12% of NZers support the bill getting an alt view might be difficult. Enjoy the new topic.

 

Yep, fair enough; it's just that it's also quite useful to have an idea of the particular lens of the writer; for example, going by earlier posts my reading is that you're a hardline Christian, which clearly and strongly influences your views on this particular matter, is far from immaterial in how one reads and interprets your posts.

 

 

Let's change direction.

 

All I can say is that IMO devoted parenting of children from day 0 to 10,000 is not evolutionary advantageous. All the energy, time, money, physical stress, emotional stress, psychological stress, on 2-4 rascals is not beneficial for the species (ok not sure about species but they all destroy my stuff waste all my money and make me upset by doing dumb things - both my kids and their friends/cousins). Better to just have 1,000 kids and leave them to be, and that way one's gene pool is more reliably maximized.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 2382129 28-Dec-2019 12:37
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Certainly disciplining kids is an area fraught with pitfalls. My teenager ignores his mum but will eventually comply with me, perhaps that's a result of of the way I 'act' triggering a deep down response in him.

 

It often is an act of putting on the big voice and sometimes body language that tells him no is not the correct answer right now. 

 

It disappoints me when I see parents who seem reluctant to tell their kids no - even when they're small. It's easy to want to be the nice guy but geez, usually for their own good, no is often the answer.

 

I know a number of single child and parent families - is it a coincidence there seem to be so many spoilt kids ? E.g. we had a visitor the other day who had never brought her kids to our house before. While the adults were greeting one of the kids took off to a part of the house uninvited.

 

It's a small thing but they're called boundaries - does your son have them?

 

 


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  # 2382132 28-Dec-2019 12:42
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elpenguino:

 

Certainly disciplining kids is an area fraught with pitfalls. My teenager ignores his mum but will eventually comply with me, perhaps that's a result of of the way I 'act' triggering a deep down response in him.

 

It often is an act of putting on the big voice and sometimes body language that tells him no is not the correct answer right now. 

 

It disappoints me when I see parents who seem reluctant to tell their kids no - even when they're small. It's easy to want to be the nice guy but geez, usually for their own good, no is often the answer.

 

I know a number of single child and parent families - is it a coincidence there seem to be so many spoilt kids ? E.g. we had a visitor the other day who had never brought her kids to our house before. While the adults were greeting one of the kids took off to a part of the house uninvited.

 

It's a small thing but they're called boundaries - does your son have them?

 

 

 

 

Boundaries - my sons hate me as I'm the military mafia. When mom's around I'm worst dad in the world. But send mum away and they suddenly become angels. At social gatherings when all the kids are wreaking havoc mine turn into model citizens, and when everybody is glued to their tablets mine are instructed to make their own bows and arrows. But until I run out of energy and then they can do whatever they want but they're actually quite obedient. One day one of their friends turn up and tried to flush down an entire toilet paper roll. She's never been invited back.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 2382213 28-Dec-2019 14:28
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Mebbe it's a boy thing but my wife doesn't get it. There's been a few times recently when I've got home and been told I need to 'do something' related to some kind of infraction.
A. I'm not stepping in as some kind of heavy taking on the role of bad cop cos you can't enforce your will

B. Conceding authority to me in this way will make the kids ignore you even more.

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  # 2382251 28-Dec-2019 16:47
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Boundaries Boundaries Boundaries - all start from the day you pop out. e.g. controlled crying or controlled comforting. Then as they grow older into pre-school age, introducing the idea of responsibility and 'think before you do & say' because actions & responsibilities = consequences.

 

Yes I had corporal punishment as a child and into early teens as I went to a C of E boarding school but I probably would have been diagnosed as ADHD if that diagnosis had been around back then. But punishment was always accompanied by an explanation of why actions & responsibilities = consequences. But then authorities and parents go too far. E.G. they remove that excellent climbing tree from the play ground. Children and adults do learn, mostly, from mistakes. It is those that don't learn you have to worry about. The greatest teacher is history.

 

I have seen & heard too many parents smack and say no without explanations. A lot of the times it was because that was the way they were brought up so we have the vicious circle. Or we have parents who do not want children to go through what they went through and again the pendulum goes to far.

 

Nobody can be "Leave it to Beaver" or "Family Ties" parents 100% of the time. Parenting itself is a learning curve whether it is one child or 11 children, because each child is different but with each additional child a parent becomes that little more relaxed and chilled out.

 

But it all starts with Boundaries.

 

Yea I know I posted this here as well. Child discipline and the anti smacking law





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  # 2382723 30-Dec-2019 08:48
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Batman:
PsychoSmiley:

 

de Quervain’s tenosynovitis

 

 

 

4 months of child rearing have achieved what 30 years of video games could not.

 

 

 

 

 



I'd say its got everything to do with it lol. Wait till they weigh 25kgs

 

Very much not thankfully. de Quervain’s tenosynovitis or "Mothers Thumb" stems from picking up a child in such a way that causes stress on the thumb ligament. For me it it's my left hand and it's due to bath time and the angle of pickup using the under armpit lift. 

 

Seems very common and also in parents of high percentile children. He's 90th percentile for weight and he's a very large lad. I play more PC stuff than console and have my whole life so my thumbs are in pretty good condition and thankfully doesn't affect the use of that.

 

The challenge is trying not to place the left thumb under any strain so it can heal as well as picking him up differently.


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