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  #2383144 30-Dec-2019 21:56
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Rikkitic:

Arguing religious belief on any level is descending into a rabbit hole that is beyond my energy and patience. I will confine myself to gently pointing out a logical fallacy in your reasoning, which is to assume that every other believer is as nuanced as you.  I don't doubt that your belief doesnt nullify your brain and common sense. But for far too many, religion is an excuse for dogma and intolerance. It is a bulldozer that gets driven through reasoned debate and polite disagreement. That is my objection to it. 


 



And I'm not interested in this as a religious debate.

As I said earlier religion and God were dragged into this by the atheist and angry at religion.. not Christian's.

It's a straw man argument that is used to derail common sense and intelligent discussion.

Just like the use of the word abuse to cover all forms of physical discipline ... which includes smacking but is not confined to smacking. Pushups, exercise, restraint, resistence are all forms of physical discipline and the dogmatic keep calling them abuse to derail common sense thinking on a position they disagree with.

Likewise to smear those who disagree with the bill as fundamentalist, dumb ass, idiots who believe a load of bollocks when it looks idiotic .. just like those backwards women hating Islamics who are certainly known as abusers ... they use strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks as they have no intelligent position to defend.

Its simple.
The change in the law failed to reduce abuse...fact.
The law has seen a ton of resource tied up on what should never have even been reported..fact.
The law has villified reasonable force / physical discipline fact.
More kids are abused now since the law -hard facts.

The law failed and its idiotic to continue supporting it as it stands... opinion.




nunz



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  #2383147 30-Dec-2019 22:06
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dafman:

The ONLY people still raising this issue are active christians, many of which do so at the prompting of NZ's US-styled christian lobby group, family first. Everyone else has moved on.


So, unless Nunz provides tangible information on his claim that a NZ grandmother was prosecuted for pulling her grandchild to safety from oncoming traffic, this will be my last post on this thread. I see little point in providing further oxygen to this irrelevant fire.



Seriously? 85% of people against thereferendum. About the same still opposed 5 years later in another poll..
And they are only Christian's against this? At last count the number of Christian's im NZ was well below the 30% mark so how does 85% poll results reflect a minority belief system? The stats don't gel ..

I do not have any prompting from USA lobby groups. I'm a free agent in this respect and hate what the law has done and failed to do.

So sorry .. I prove others than USA prompted Christians are opposed. Oh yeah .. my lesbian atheist friends hates the law too.. and my grandmother ... non Christian.. now dead ... and that homosexual teacher I work with .. and ... whoops. Not only christians. Oh yeah a few muslims too.

Stop these stupid smears ... actually make a point. To oppose this law doesnt require one to be a brain dead fundamentalist drop kick. Some of us are actually quite intelligent and well informed.




nunz

 
 
 
 




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  #2383152 30-Dec-2019 22:25
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mm1352000:

dafman: The ONLY people still raising this issue are active christians, many of which do so at the prompting of NZ's US-styled christian lobby group, family first.


While I have no doubt that family first continue to advocate for change, I think you may have significantly over-estimated their influence on the opinions and actions of "active christians" in NZ.


dafman: Everyone else has moved on.


Perhaps. It'll be interesting to see if NZ First make any mention of a referendum on the issue in this election cycle (as they did in 2017).


dafman: So, unless Nunz provides tangible information on his claim that a NZ grandmother was prosecuted for pulling her grandchild to safety from oncoming traffic...


Yes, I too would like to hear more about this aforementioned annecdote.



https://www.familyfirst.org.nz/research/smacking-cases/

Grandmother Warned by Police After Grabbing Grandchild Running onto Road
South Auckland
This grandmother had to prevent her 2 year old grandson from running onto the road by grabbing his arm and pulling him back to the footpath. She was petrified that her grandson could be run over. A police officer witnessed her and said she was breaking the law by grabbing him. She was let off with a warning but was told that if it ever happened again, they would prosecute her. She had recently lost a friend’s child (6) to a train crash. (Takanini) She now puts him in the pram to avoid getting arrested. Her family is horrified by what’s happened and she’s now concerned about taking her grandchildren out in public. She feels she’s been publicly humiliated.




nunz

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  #2383163 30-Dec-2019 23:07
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nunz:

 

My question is why is it bad to leave kids alone for 5 mins in the car, properly ventilated., locked and safe.

As a kid we spent longer in the car while mum shopped and no one turned a hair. It's not anymore dangerous now than then...probably less. Where is the actual harm or danger?

Oranga shouldnt be involved. Better should be sent.

In law innocent until proven guilty. Wheres the guilt?

 

Glad you are still with us nunz.

 

Any update on the grandmother you claimed was prosecuted for pulling a child away from traffic? Feel free to retract your earlier statement if you got it wrong.

 

It's just that in the 12+ years since S59 was repealed, I cannot recall a single case in mainstream media where parents or caregivers have been unfairly prosecuted as a consequence of the law reform?

 

However, thankfully, I also cannot recall any cases in the last 12+ years where parents have used riding crops or rubber hoses to beat children and successfully escaped prosecution as was the case prior to the law reform.  Surely, you don't want us as a society to return to those days?


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  #2383166 30-Dec-2019 23:53
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nunz:
Dratsab: I also don't see the point of trying to compare a highly litigious, gun crazy society with what happens here.

 

While we only have one side of the usual "I was only gone for 5 minutes" story, the circumstances as set out in the above saga would likely involve a notification being sent through to Oranga Tamariki and an investigation into the circumstances, but would most likely culminate in a 'don't do it again' letter. 

 

My question is why is it bad to leave kids alone for 5 mins in the car, properly ventilated., locked and safe.

As a kid we spent longer in the car while mum shopped and no one turned a hair. It's not anymore dangerous now than then...probably less. Where is the actual harm or danger?

Oranga shouldnt be involved. Better should be sent.

In law innocent until proven guilty. Wheres the guilt?

 

The evidence is in the fact the children were left alone in the vehicle. They shouldn't have been. Period. Why is it bad?
- can you absolutely guarantee nothing will happen which prevents your timely return to your vehicle?
- can you absolutely guarantee nothing will happen to your vehicle while you're away from it? (e.g. an electrical short starting a fire)

 

The answer to both of those questions is no. On the balance of probabilities, everything will be fine, but you still can't guarantee it.

 

nunz: https://www.familyfirst.org.nz/research/smacking-cases/

Grandmother Warned by Police After Grabbing Grandchild Running onto Road
South Auckland
This grandmother had to prevent her 2 year old grandson from running onto the road by grabbing his arm and pulling him back to the footpath. She was petrified that her grandson could be run over. A police officer witnessed her and said she was breaking the law by grabbing him. She was let off with a warning but was told that if it ever happened again, they would prosecute her. She had recently lost a friend’s child (6) to a train crash. (Takanini) She now puts him in the pram to avoid getting arrested. Her family is horrified by what’s happened and she’s now concerned about taking her grandchildren out in public. She feels she’s been publicly humiliated.

 

A good half of the articles on that page have no reference links, so I'll call propagandist BS on it. 

 

Overall, I think you're simply here to get a little sympathy and maybe some support over your belief it's ok to hit children. It's not and you probably won't. I've got three daughters (22, 20 and 7) - smacking them whenever they pressed my buttons has simply never been an option. Time out and removal of privileges works quite effectively.


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  #2383530 31-Dec-2019 21:59
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nunz: 

https://www.familyfirst.org.nz/research/smacking-cases/

Grandmother Warned by Police After Grabbing Grandchild Running onto Road
South Auckland
This grandmother had to prevent her 2 year old grandson from running onto the road by grabbing his arm and pulling him back to the footpath. She was petrified that her grandson could be run over. A police officer witnessed her and said she was breaking the law by grabbing him. She was let off with a warning but was told that if it ever happened again, they would prosecute her. She had recently lost a friend’s child (6) to a train crash. (Takanini) She now puts him in the pram to avoid getting arrested. Her family is horrified by what’s happened and she’s now concerned about taking her grandchildren out in public. She feels she’s been publicly humiliated.

 

Care to link a plausible source that isn't a religious organisation trying to get the repeal undone? We'll wait.


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  #2383547 31-Dec-2019 23:09
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Dratsab:

 

The evidence is in the fact the children were left alone in the vehicle. They shouldn't have been. Period. Why is it bad?
- can you absolutely guarantee nothing will happen which prevents your timely return to your vehicle?
- can you absolutely guarantee nothing will happen to your vehicle while you're away from it? (e.g. an electrical short starting a fire)

 

The answer to both of those questions is no. On the balance of probabilities, everything will be fine, but you still can't guarantee it.

 

 

No, you cannot absolutely guarantee anything, but please tell me how often a parked car has burst into flames due to an electrical fault?

 

It could be argued children left alone properly ventilated vehicle for a short time as originally posted by Nunz were potentially safer than the Mum or Dad taking them with them on the errand. For example crossing a busy road with young children can have risks significantly greater then leaving the children in the car.

 

As children we were left to wait in the car on our own for short periods while Mum or Dad completed a short errand. My experience is that it's not risky. Trouble is some people make it their business to make it out it is risky.





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
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  #2383552 31-Dec-2019 23:36
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Technofreak: ...

 

Things appear to be descending into irrelevant nit-pickery. Leaving kids unattended in cars - it's not ok. Getting back to the original topic of hitting kids - it's not ok.


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  #2383553 1-Jan-2020 00:11
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Dratsab:

 

Technofreak: ...

 

Things appear to be descending into irrelevant nit-pickery. Leaving kids unattended in cars - it's not ok. Getting back to the original topic of hitting kids - it's not ok.

 

 

You have your opinion I have mine. Looks like we differ.

 

Like about 85% of the people in this country I happen to think a smack on the backside is a legitimate tool a parent should have access to for disciplining a child. It never did me or any of my siblings any harm. You are among the 15% who wish to force your views on the overwhelming majority.

 

While the no smacking regime might have worked for you it doesn't work for for everyone nor on every occasion.

 

As for the nit-pickery it was you that kicked off that by mentioning the most unlikely event of an electrical short circuit starting a fire in a parked car. 





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Nokia N1
Dell Inspiron 14z i5


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  #2383554 1-Jan-2020 00:15
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The referendum wasn't a representative question as it had very little to do with the legislation.

If you want to use stats please make them meaningful.

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  #2383572 1-Jan-2020 07:27
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The outcomes of the law change will take time. You cannot change generations of hitting kids and violence overnight. New Zealand made the right decision now let it run and make life better for our kids. Children will be better children and adults if parents learn to be better parents using positive methods and not violence.

 

As for the comments about leaving children unattended in cars, don't, to suggest it's OK is simply stupid.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  #2383592 1-Jan-2020 10:11
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When I was a kid my mother used to hit me with the wooden spoon, my father used to leave me unattended in the car, and teachers used to give naughty kids the strap.

 

It never occurred to me that I was a victim of 'child abuse' until I read this thread!


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  #2383593 1-Jan-2020 10:37
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Na you're just one of the ones that survived





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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  #2383598 1-Jan-2020 11:01
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We never used physical punishment and neither did my parents. We used positive ways such as talking and informing, time outs and temporary loss of privileges. We never sent out kids to their bedrooms for punishment that was their space and comfort zone not a place of punishment and sadness.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


Lock him up!
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  #2383604 1-Jan-2020 11:19
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Children are resilient. They can survive a lot of unhappy experiences and still do well. That does not mean those experiences have no effect on them. Saying that being thrashed as a child didn't hurt you is like saying you are a smoker and you are still doing fine. It doesn't prove a thing.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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