Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7
BDFL - Memuneh
67461 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

  #2411980 3-Feb-2020 17:11
Send private message

Lias:

 

If violence never settles anything, then why do we have armed forces and police forces that are deputized to use violence to keep the peace. 

 

 

Police forces are not deputised to use violence. They will try other courses of action first. And even so, using violence as a means to settle things can't be done as they aren't jury and judge. 

 

As for the armed forces, the defence should be the first priority, otherwise it would be no different than an attacker using gratuitous violence.





 

 

These links are referral codes

 

Geekzone broadband switch | Eletricity comparison and switch | Hatch investment (NZ$ 10 bonus if NZ$100 deposited within 30 days) | Sharesies | Mighty Ape | Backblaze | Amazon | My technology disclosure 


10361 posts

Uber Geek


  #2411982 3-Feb-2020 17:15
Send private message

Lias:

 

If violence never settles anything, then why do we have armed forces and police forces that are deputized to use violence to keep the peace. 

 

 

Since when have our police been "deputised to use violence" as a method to settle disputes?

 

This thread was silly from the start.  It's gone from 1950s reefer madness fantasy to 1850s cowboy and western fantasy and vigilantism, I'm out.  


 
 
 
 


1469 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Nurse (R)
Lifetime subscriber

  #2411997 3-Feb-2020 17:42
Send private message

Lias:

 

If violence never settles anything, then why do we have armed forces and police forces that are deputized to use violence to keep the peace.  I don't think I could ever possibly put it better than Heinlein when he said:

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion [that violence never settles anything] is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms."

 

I would be careful quoting Robert A. Heinlein who was a science fiction writer and mainly a socialist but later became a libertarian. Though I do have 50 of his books. Socialism runs through the majority of his books and your quote above is from Starship Troopers which was most definitely based on a socialist militarist or even a fascist society with all that those societies bring or does not bring to its populations.





iMac 27" (late 2013), Airport Time Capsule + Airport Express, iPhone7, iPad6, iPad Mini2

 

Panasonic Blu-ray PVR DMR-BWT835 + Panasonic Viera TH-L50E6Z, Chromecast Ultra, Yamaha AVR RX-V1085


4137 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2412008 3-Feb-2020 18:33
Send private message

FineWine:

 

Lias:

 

If violence never settles anything, then why do we have armed forces and police forces that are deputized to use violence to keep the peace.  I don't think I could ever possibly put it better than Heinlein when he said:

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion [that violence never settles anything] is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms."

 

I would be careful quoting Robert A. Heinlein who was a science fiction writer and mainly a socialist but later became a libertarian. Though I do have 50 of his books. Socialism runs through the majority of his books and your quote above is from Starship Troopers which was most definitely based on a socialist militarist or even a fascist society with all that those societies bring or does not bring to its populations.

 

 

I'm well aware of where the quote came from. I venerate Heinlein and also own many of his books and my political worldview has definitely been influenced by his writing, Starship Troopers in particular.





4137 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2412014 3-Feb-2020 19:16
Send private message

freitasm:

 

Lias:

 

If violence never settles anything, then why do we have armed forces and police forces that are deputized to use violence to keep the peace. 

 

 

Police forces are not deputised to use violence. They will try other courses of action first. And even so, using violence as a means to settle things can't be done as they aren't jury and judge. 

 

As for the armed forces, the defence should be the first priority, otherwise it would be no different than an attacker using gratuitous violence.

 

 

If you or I were to use a mace, as taser, a trained attack dog, or a firearm on another person, we'd be charged with committing acts of violence. A duly deputized police officer carrying out their duties will not, because they are deputized to _commit violence_ when needed to enforce the law and protect the peace. 

 

As for the armed forces, defense of _what_ is the question. Do we just defend ourselves? Do we defend our allies? Do we defend 'our way of life and western democracy'? Do we defend oil? If another country is invaded by an aggressor should we help them? If we do help them, are our armed forced not committing legally mandated acts of violence against the opposition? If they win, their use of violence has settled whatever drove them to attack in the first place, alternatively if we defend the invaded country and win then has not violence settled things as well? Violence is not inherently bad. Violence without a morally justifiable reason.. That's another story (albeit a very subjective one!)

 

 





BDFL - Memuneh
67461 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

  #2412015 3-Feb-2020 19:17
Send private message

Please leave the politics and ideologies out of this thread.





 

 

These links are referral codes

 

Geekzone broadband switch | Eletricity comparison and switch | Hatch investment (NZ$ 10 bonus if NZ$100 deposited within 30 days) | Sharesies | Mighty Ape | Backblaze | Amazon | My technology disclosure 


4137 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

 
 
 
 


2844 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  #2412362 4-Feb-2020 11:48
Send private message

Getting back on topic...

 

 

 

I think it's interesting that OP mentioned the situation of the many caravans and multiple tenancies late in the piece - I would've led with that because I think it's important. 

 

A group living in a caravan, on a property (assumedly in the suburbs) with other caravans and a main dwelling being the landlord residence makes for a different read. 

 

It feels..."alternative" in lifestyle and outside the norm...so therefore I think they may see their behaviour as perfectly acceptable. 

 

 

 

I think the angle of a friendly chat over the fence just politely asking if they could smoke somewhere else on the property as the smoke tends to go into the kids rooms and they don'y like it and it affects their health may be the best way to approach it in the first instance - regardless of your other feelings toward their general demeanor and behaviour. Hopefully they'll simply see that you're not anti-smoke, just concerned for your kids' health. 

 

 

 

If not - you know you can always take an other approach later. 





Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan is currently WFH.
Handsome Dan is perplexed...and a little stir crazy.
Handsome Dan is transitioning back to normal life one day a week..
Handsome Dan is trying not to sweat the small stuff..and sometimes succeeds


22698 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2412368 4-Feb-2020 11:53
Send private message

I don't think mentioning health is going to help. Most dope smokers I know get defensive if you suggest health as an issue with dope-smoking, many believing it's "good" for them.

 

Saying you don't like it, and mentioning it goes into the kids rooms, should be enough for reasonable people. If that doesn't work, the health angle won't either. Esp if they have kids of their own.

 

 

 

 


4660 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  #2412371 4-Feb-2020 11:58
Send private message

The disadvantage of talking to them first is that they will know it was you who subsequently called the police/council/landlord.

 

If you go straight to the authorities in the first instance then they are unlikely to be able to guess who made the complaint.


2844 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  #2412412 4-Feb-2020 12:18
Send private message

alasta:

 

The disadvantage of talking to them first is that they will know it was you who subsequently called the police/council/landlord.

 

If you go straight to the authorities in the first instance then they are unlikely to be able to guess who made the complaint.

 

Well...there is that. 





Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan is currently WFH.
Handsome Dan is perplexed...and a little stir crazy.
Handsome Dan is transitioning back to normal life one day a week..
Handsome Dan is trying not to sweat the small stuff..and sometimes succeeds


570 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2412984 5-Feb-2020 12:25
Send private message

freitasm:

 

@Lias:

 

Pay some other large hairy non nice people to *cough* have a quiet word *cough*

 

 

Pray tell, why violence would be a viable solution?

 

 

 

 

I think they are suggesting that someone fresh from a flight from Whuan province should go and cough on them.  14 days later, problem solved (unless cannabis has undiscovered anti viral properties). 


570 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2413017 5-Feb-2020 12:49
Send private message

FineWine:

 

Lias:

 

If violence never settles anything, then why do we have armed forces and police forces that are deputized to use violence to keep the peace.  I don't think I could ever possibly put it better than Heinlein when he said:

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion [that violence never settles anything] is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms."

 

I would be careful quoting Robert A. Heinlein who was a science fiction writer and mainly a socialist but later became a libertarian. Though I do have 50 of his books. Socialism runs through the majority of his books and your quote above is from Starship Troopers which was most definitely based on a socialist militarist or even a fascist society with all that those societies bring or does not bring to its populations.

 

 

Starship troopers is a very popular book among the US military.  I think they like the fascist part and the theme that only soldiers get to become citizens.

 

We are getting off topic but this is interesting.  The armed forces and police do keep peace through actual or threatened violence.  Think about it.  If you didn't pay your taxes you would eventually get a fine.  If you don't pay the fine you eventually get arrested.  If you resist the arrest they the police use violence to force you to comply.  This can be escalated up to deadly force if you resist hard enough.

 

If this penalty didn't exist, I for one, would not pay my taxes.  I don't have any objection to the principal of taxes, I just don't agree with the things they are spent on so if there was no penalty I wouldn't pay them.

 

In order for this principal to exist (deterrence) the threatened use of force must be overwhelming so that the other party has no realistic chance of winning.  If they had a realistic chance of winning they would consider if the fight is worth it.  If they don't think they have any chance of winning then the fight is prevented.

 

It's this reason that nuclear weapons exist.  They don't exist to be used, they exist so that they other guy knows if he uses his it will be the last thing he does.  If this balance gets upset (e.g. someone builds a missile defense system so that they can survive the first strike) then war becomes more likely.

 

So in summary:

 

  • Nuclear weapons are defensive weapons.  They have to be demonstrated that they can be used so that the other guy knows but they are intended to never be used.
  • Missile defense systems are offensive weapons.  They give you a better chance of surviving an counter attack which increases the chance you will launch a attack.

How does all this relate to dope smoking neighbors?  You shouldn't use violence against these people because a) It's not what nice people do and b) it won't work because you don't have an overwhelming threat of force that will create deterrence.

 

It's worth noting that deterrence is what keeps the peace between drug gangs (they can't use the police).  They violence that they inflict on people must be visible and horrible so that it deters others.

 

There are two wars.  The war against drugs and the war for the control of drug sales.  The first war enables the second (nobody fights gang wars for the right to open a bottle store).

 

This book explains the whole thing much better than I can:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasing_the_Scream

 

 

 

So vote yes in the referendum.  Not because you like weed or think that it's harmless.  Vote yes because it reduces violence, removes income from criminals and increases tax revenue.  It lets problem uses seek treatment and lets non problem users get on with their non problematic lives.

 

 

 

Smoke blowing over the fence is annoying but so is second hand smoke from hipsters vaping and unrestrained cats crapping in my yard.  You have an annoying neighbor problem, not a weed problem.

 

 


Devastation by stupidity
12263 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2413050 5-Feb-2020 13:45
Send private message

landcruiserguy:

 

Starship troopers is a very popular book among the US military.  I think they like the fascist part and the theme that only soldiers get to become citizens.

 

 

You make some interesting points and I am a Heinlein fan (who isn’t?), but I think you are slightly misunderstanding the use of violence. 

 

There is a difference between violence and coercion. Coercive force is pinning an uncooperative suspect to the ground and having six burly police officers sit on him. By applying overwhelming force (not ‘violence’), a person or group can be made to do something they don’t want to. 

 

Violence is obtaining compliance by bashing the subject. I believe this is fundamentally different than coercion. There are many forms of coercion, such as persuasion, bribery, physical restraint, threats of deprivation. There is only one form of violence.

 

I believe nuclear weapons and Mutual Assured Destruction are insane. That they haven’t been used until now is just dumb luck. The US system of government is breaking down because a tyrant has taken over and is changing the balance of power. A madman or leader without morals like North Korea’s Kim might well unleash a suicidal attack for irrational reasons. Any dictator in ultimate control is capable of that. Deterrence doesn’t mean a thing.

 

I agree that pot should be legalised. It should have happened a long time ago.

 


 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


4137 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2413204 5-Feb-2020 17:21
Send private message

@landcruiserguy I'd love to discuss this further, but people got triggered by my post(s) and Freitasm told me to shut up, so I'm shutting up :-)





1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic





Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Chorus completes the build and commissioning of two new core Ethernet switches
Posted 8-Jul-2020 09:48


National Institute for Health Innovation develops treatment app for gambling
Posted 6-Jul-2020 16:25


Nokia 2.3 to be available in New Zealand
Posted 6-Jul-2020 12:30


Menulog change colours as parent company merges with Dutch food delivery service
Posted 2-Jul-2020 07:53


Techweek2020 goes digital to make it easier for Kiwis to connect and learn
Posted 2-Jul-2020 07:48


Catalyst Cloud launches new Solutions Hub to support their kiwi Partners and Customers
Posted 2-Jul-2020 07:44


Microsoft to help New Zealand job seekers acquire new digital skills needed for the COVID-19 economy
Posted 2-Jul-2020 07:41


Hewlett Packard Enterprise introduces new HPE GreenLake cloud services
Posted 24-Jun-2020 08:07


New cloud data protection services from Hewlett Packard Enterprise
Posted 24-Jun-2020 07:58


Hewlett Packard Enterprise unveils HPE Ezmeral, new software portfolio and brand
Posted 24-Jun-2020 07:10


Apple reveals new developer technologies to foster the next generation of apps
Posted 23-Jun-2020 15:30


Poly introduces solutions for Microsoft Teams Rooms
Posted 23-Jun-2020 15:14


Lenovo launches new ThinkPad P Series mobile workstations
Posted 23-Jun-2020 09:17


Lenovo brings Linux certification to ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation portfolio
Posted 23-Jun-2020 08:56


Apple introduces new features for iPhone iOS14 and iPadOS 14
Posted 23-Jun-2020 08:28



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.