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16406 posts

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  #2424115 19-Feb-2020 15:48
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davidcole:

 

mattwnz:

 

But what are all the  exact ingredients that go into it, and is it actually 'healthier'? It doesn't appear it is even vegan. Meat is often part of a balanced diet. 

 

I am a big fan of using Tofu, and using that with other ingredients to create meat like alternatives. 

 

 

 

 

i don’t think it’s healthier.  Just not farmed from meat.  See the video for why this might be desirable.  There’s a lot of infrastructure needed for farming.  Less so, apparently for plant products.

 

As long as it’s not genetically modified, or purely synthetic,  I’d give it a go,

 

 

 

 

Is there any genetically modified food actually sold in NZ anyway? I thought it was banned, or does that just apply to the growing of it?

 

Isn't all food 'organic', even this. 

 

NZ is basically the supermarket for the rest of the world, so we have far more cows etc, than we are actually using to feed our own people. As a result, it causes environmental issues. We didn't used to have these problems to the same extent. When things are done in moderation, rather than taken to the limits and extremes, the environment can naturally repair itself. But with such a huge population increase int eh world, and so much waste being produced, something needs to change, rather than making it all about money. But is this sort of thing actually the answer, or more of a distraction.  


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  #2424129 19-Feb-2020 16:28
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mattwnz:

 

.... something needs to change, rather than making it all about money. But is this sort of thing actually the answer, or more of a distraction.  

 

 

It's not the only thing that needs to happen, but it is part of the answer.

 

The Beyond Meat burger uses 99 percent less water, 93 percent less land and 90 percent less fossil fuel emissions; the Impossible Burger uses 87 percent less water, 96 percent less land, and 89 percent less fossil fuel emissions than a quarter pound of regular ground beef. 

 

And it's healthier:

 

Based on calories alone, plant-based protein is healthier than animal-based meat. The Impossible Whopper from Burger King is lower in calories, fat and cholesterol than the regular Whopper. Cell-based meat also has the potential to be healthier than regular animal meat because it can be engineered to contain more protein, essential amino acids and vitamins while reducing the amount of saturated fat and minimizing the chance of animal-borne illnesses (such as salmonella and E. coli) contaminating the meat.

 

 

 

Reference: NBC News

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2424270 19-Feb-2020 21:53
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mattwnz:

 

Is there any genetically modified food actually sold in NZ anyway? I thought it was banned, or does that just apply to the growing of it?

 

 

Almost all cheese is made using rennet from genetically modified microorganisms. However, the rennet protein is isolated from the bacteria so no GMO DNA goes into the cheese. So, yes it can be sold here and does not need to be labeled (as long as the DNA is removed).  This is a similar process that some companies are using to produce milk and meat proteins.

 

 


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  #2424332 20-Feb-2020 09:24
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In theory, I think it's great that these mainstream retailers are providing non-meat options (despite some assumptions that there's a decent bit of greenwashing behind it); as a vegetarian I find the limited or nil suitable options at most places really frustrating (the McD's 'salad burger' was essentially a standard meat burger minus the patty; Burger King's offering had onion rings).

 

It's just a pity that it's apparently too difficult to ensure a fully vegetarian-friendly cooking process, so that will lose a number of potential customers. That said, there are so many other reasons that people are turning to non-meat-based protein (eg environmental or health, as highlighted above), so this won't be an issue for those people.

 

Most vegetarians know there has been a decent enough range of non-meat proteins available for a long time, especially from Asian food shops (vegetarian duck, anyone?). I acknowledge that many of these are soy-based, but also many aren't. For many years we've made sausages out of wheat gluten - and these are way tastier (and cheaper!) than the commercial vege sausages.

 

But it's still great to see the increasing range of options in supermarkets - when Pak 'n' Save starts ranging them you know it's made a decent impact on the market! I heard an interview a few years back with the founder of Beyond Meats (edit: or may have been Impossible Burger - can't find the original source) - while he is vegan, he understands he can have more impact on reducing overall meat consumption by convincing meat eaters to have one or two meatless meals a week than by trying to convert them to vegetarianism or veganism. That's why I support these very 'meaty' products - many vegetarians may be put off by their simulation of the real thing, but if it helps shift others. So props to those meat eaters out there who have given this a go, and especially those who will go back for seconds...


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  #2424343 20-Feb-2020 09:48
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jonathan18:

 

In theory, I think it's great that these mainstream retailers are providing non-meat options (despite some assumptions that there's a decent bit of greenwashing behind it); as a vegetarian I find the limited or nil suitable options at most places really frustrating (the McD's 'salad burger' was essentially a standard meat burger minus the patty; Burger King's offering had onion rings).

 

It's just a pity that it's apparently too difficult to ensure a fully vegetarian-friendly cooking process, so that will lose a number of potential customers. That said, there are so many other reasons that people are turning to non-meat-based protein (eg environmental or health, as highlighted above), so this won't be an issue for those people.

 

....

 

 

They are commercial entities charged with delivering returns to their shareholders.  They will do just enough by way of 'being socially responsible' to maintain brand reputation but in the end each of their products needs to make (enough) money.  If they can't turn a decent profit on a true vegetarian option then (sadly for vegetarians) I suspect they won't bother.





The three hardest things to say: 1. I was wrong, 2. I need help, 3. Worcestershire sauce.

 

 


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  #2424431 20-Feb-2020 11:06
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Tried it, quite enjoyed it, will have it again. By itself I suspect the patty would be less appealing but in a burger it's not a bad approximation. Also tried one at mcdonalds a while back, forget what it was called. That was ok too.

 

 

 

I doubt I'll ever give up meat and I know I eat too much fast food. At least these options let me make a minor improvement without any real effort on my part.


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  #2424546 20-Feb-2020 14:20
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jonathan18:

 

In theory, I think it's great that these mainstream retailers are providing non-meat options (despite some assumptions that there's a decent bit of greenwashing behind it); as a vegetarian I find the limited or nil suitable options at most places really frustrating (the McD's 'salad burger' was essentially a standard meat burger minus the patty; Burger King's offering had onion rings).

 

It's just a pity that it's apparently too difficult to ensure a fully vegetarian-friendly cooking process, so that will lose a number of potential customers. That said, there are so many other reasons that people are turning to non-meat-based protein (eg environmental or health, as highlighted above), so this won't be an issue for those people.

 

Most vegetarians know there has been a decent enough range of non-meat proteins available for a long time, especially from Asian food shops (vegetarian duck, anyone?). I acknowledge that many of these are soy-based, but also many aren't. For many years we've made sausages out of wheat gluten - and these are way tastier (and cheaper!) than the commercial vege sausages.

 

 

 

 

I have always found there is a fair amount of non meat options, but it can require more DIY approaches, rather than buying a processed product from teh store shelf. . 

 

Is going totally meat free necessarily 'healthy' though? Aren't humans omnivores? My understanding is that people who don't eat meat, may then need to to supplements to make up for  vitamins that they are not getting from meat. eg  iron, vitamin D and vitamin B12.

 

 

 

At the moment with fast food chains, this is a fashionable topic at the moment, and IMO it appears to be more of a marketing gimmick and a way to get publicity. Similar to how drone delivery was a gimmick a few years ago. 


 
 
 
 


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  #2424557 20-Feb-2020 14:52
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Had one last night after reading this thread. Had it side by side with a regular whopper (wife and I went halves).

 

By itself - pretty good. Holds up as an aggressively processed relatively cheap meat pattie. Maybe a little strong artificial smoke flavour, or just a little more charred than the regular bk pattie?

 

Pretty jucy.

 

Beside the actual whopper - it's not meat - or at least if it is is more like a chicken nugget style meat pattie than a mince pattie.

 

Still if I'd got it without knowing I would have looked at it, but been happy enough.

 

 

 

 


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  #2424575 20-Feb-2020 15:24
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mattwnz:

 

Is going totally meat free necessarily 'healthy' though? Aren't humans omnivores? My understanding is that people who don't eat meat, may then need to to supplements to make up for  vitamins that they are not getting from meat. eg  iron, vitamin D and vitamin B12.

 

 

Given the increasingly acknowledged health risks attached to a diet high in meat, plus the environmental footprint of meat production, and the ethical considerations..., at this point I'm happy to take the 'risk' of being vegetarian (as I have been for the last 25 years).

 

Yep, it takes a bit more work to ensure balance; quantity and quality of protein can be an issue, especially if taking a 'meatless' approach, where a "meat and three veg" diet is replaced by simply removing the meat component! But, as per the specific topic of this thread, there are more and more sources of protein for vegetarians.

 

Yep, iron can also be an issue. I've never had a problem, but it's not something we risk with our kids (one of which is fully vege, the other eating the occasional bit of fish): both have daily iron and vitamin C supplements (the latter helping with the absorption of the former).

 

Also, one needs to acknowledge the difference between a vegetarian and vegan diet - B12 isn't usually a concern for vegetarians if their dairy consumption is adequate; much more of an issue for vegans, who will often have to have injections (so will/should those vegetarians who don't consume much dairy/have a genetic propensity to lower B12 - two of my siblings are in that boat).

 

 


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  #2424576 20-Feb-2020 15:26
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My niece was telling me about a doco trending on Netflix at the moment that's highly pertinent to this thread: called 'The Game Changers', it apparently "makes some pretty big claims, suggesting that a plant-based diet is actually better for improving performance and strength than eating meat." (https://www.radiotimes.com/news/on-demand/2020-01-16/the-game-changers-netflix/)

 

Haven't watched it myself, nor read any critique of it, but plan to check it out at some point...

 

 

 


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  #2424634 20-Feb-2020 19:43
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It's not the only thing that needs to happen, but it is part of the answer.

 

The Beyond Meat burger uses 99 percent less water, 93 percent less land and 90 percent less fossil fuel emissions; the Impossible Burger uses 87 percent less water, 96 percent less land, and 89 percent less fossil fuel emissions than a quarter pound of regular ground beef. 

 

 

In our context though not to that extreme. Those figures are compared to the USA's feedlot raised beef rather than the grass based system used in NZ, and it uses far less water. For instance from here: https://farmersweekly.co.nz/section/beef/view/our-farmed-meat-is-a-green-food

 

 

International researchers have determined feedlot beef production and processing uses 680 litres of water a kilogram of meat but AgResearch found NZ’s free-range beef system uses 45 litres a kilogram of beef and sheep meat 20 litres a kilogram. Processing adds another 20 to 70 litres a kilogram to beef and lamb, still well below that used on feedlot systems.

 

 

So best case a NZ lamb burger would use 94% less water, and worst case a NZ beef burger would use 83% less water. And it tastes better with no added hormones 🐂

 

 


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  #2424704 20-Feb-2020 21:50
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Well, you do get away from steroids, overuse of antibiotics and bad chemicals by not eating meats.

 

There is good reason to stay away from chicken in New Zealand, chlorine use and chicken contaminated with campylobacter are a couple of good reasons.  From what I understand chlorine baths are banned in Europe, and NZ has one of the world's highest rates of campylobacteriosis, a gastro-intestinal infection caused by the campylobacter bacteria.


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  #2424755 21-Feb-2020 07:50
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jarledb:

 

Well, you do get away from steroids, overuse of antibiotics and bad chemicals by not eating meats.

 

 

Again, these are typical of USA feedlot systems and are not typical of your run of the mill NZ grass fed beef where steroids, hormone growth promotants and unprescribed antibotics are not used and/or very very very restricted or banned. They get the odd chemical drench to control worms and parasites, but these have meat withholding periods where you cannot sell the animal until they are out of the cows system and there are enormous consequences of sending something to slaughter within a meat withholding period.

 

Chicken and pigs might be a different story, but generally NZ sheep and beef is as natural and free range as you can get - and there are ethical or organic providers that go further.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #2424767 21-Feb-2020 08:24
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jonathan18:

 

My niece was telling me about a doco trending on Netflix at the moment that's highly pertinent to this thread: called 'The Game Changers', it apparently "makes some pretty big claims, suggesting that a plant-based diet is actually better for improving performance and strength than eating meat." (https://www.radiotimes.com/news/on-demand/2020-01-16/the-game-changers-netflix/)

 

Haven't watched it myself, nor read any critique of it, but plan to check it out at some point...

 

 

 

 

While James Wilks is quite capable of defending himself, remember to read the numerous articles and watch the numerous videos that question some of the results that he has gathered, plus the poor way he has performed scientific tests.  Plus the background of who put money into the movie is quite questionable.


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  #2424792 21-Feb-2020 10:05
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jfanning:

 

jonathan18:

 

My niece was telling me about a doco trending on Netflix at the moment that's highly pertinent to this thread: called 'The Game Changers', it apparently "makes some pretty big claims, suggesting that a plant-based diet is actually better for improving performance and strength than eating meat." (https://www.radiotimes.com/news/on-demand/2020-01-16/the-game-changers-netflix/)

 

Haven't watched it myself, nor read any critique of it, but plan to check it out at some point...

 

 

While James Wilks is quite capable of defending himself, remember to read the numerous articles and watch the numerous videos that question some of the results that he has gathered, plus the poor way he has performed scientific tests.  Plus the background of who put money into the movie is quite questionable.

 

 

Yep, it's definitely a proselytising evangelistic "documentary", so I intend to approach with caution, and read up critiques after.


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