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  #2517284 4-Jul-2020 17:15
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richms:

Geektastic:


I tend to forget that people actually still use 'dumb' EFTPOS cards given the superior utility of Visa Debit cards which (in much of Europe at least) tend to fulfill the function performed here by EFTPOS cards.



I have both. I use the swipe eftpos card in machines I dont trust because it only goes into one account and if it gets skimmed then no big loss, pick a new one up at a branch and dont have to update all sorts of places that insist on storing card numbers instead of accepting paypal.


Use it at gull because those insert readers are actually reading the mag stripe on the card and I have no way to know if its tampered with and I doubt they have much security on them.


Use the swipe card whenever a place with an insert reader has it "malfunction" - a typical trait of one with a skimmer fitted so that you swipe it and they get the stripe contents. IMO its absurd that its an allowable fallback on chipped cards but the banks seem to be happy with letting things go thru as a clonable swipe and pin just because something didnt work in the chip reader.



A visa debit card also only goes to one account. The ‘dumb’ EFTPOS cards are something I’ve only ever seen here.





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  #2517292 4-Jul-2020 17:45
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Geektastic:

A visa debit card also only goes to one account. The ‘dumb’ EFTPOS cards are something I’ve only ever seen here.

 

Overseas they are called ATM cards because they dont have eftpos and all instore transactions are done thru visa or mastercard or in the USA a couple of other obscures.

 

What I mean is I only have the eftpos only card setup from an account on check that I never have much money in. Whereas the debit card goes to one with more money in it that I also pay bills out of and also is connected to the savings account. So if the swipey eftpos card is compromised because mag stripes are a stupid idea in the age of chip cards, then I dont lose too much until I deal with the bank to get it back.





Richard rich.ms

 
 
 
 


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  #2517294 4-Jul-2020 17:50
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gzt: 
So the real problem here is banks not issuing contactless (non-credit, non-debit) standard EFTPOS cards?

 

As I explained previously, this is not possible. The EFTPOS scheme operates with zero interchange, and zero scheme fees, meaning there is no incentive or ability to innovate. Due to the fact there's no resources available, the EFTPOS system is antiquated and missing important functionality such as an EMV contactless application. A bank can't produce a contactless EFTPOS card, because there's no application to put on the chip. This is in contrast to Australia where the very marginal 15c interchange fee for eftpos transactions means EPAL has actual money to work to develop things like contactless EMV applications.


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  #2517296 4-Jul-2020 17:53
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I was told that with the previous shared ownership of paymark there was a contractual thing that they didn't innovate, which is now solved that paymark has been sold off and we are now seeing things like online eftpos get out of the very basic and limited trial they had on a few merchants in the past.

 

But when the banks get their cut from visa/mastercard processing, what incentive do they have to innovate on eftpos and basically compete with themselves? They would have to somehow get payment processors on board with it, a lot of merchants who may not really care about it, and somehow still make money and cover the higher fraud rates that happen with no authentication.

 

Why would they do that?





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  #2517301 4-Jul-2020 18:18
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The biggest problem there is who actually "owns" EFTPOS (the network) now? Switching occurs over at least two networks (Paymark or EFTPOS NZ, owned by the two terminal manufacturers Ingenico and Verifone respectively), so who would have to take the lead on any development? In Australia it's easy - EPAL owns the network, and the scheme IP, so there's one entity. If EPAL changes things, it affects all participants.

 

But in NZ, with at least two networks, whether a given function works depends on who switches the transaction - Online EFTPOS, nice idea for example, only works if Paymark switches the transaction. Which according to EFTPOS NZ is impossible by the way, because they claim Paymark doesn't exist (EFTPOS NZ is "the only EFTPOS provider in New Zealand with our own payment network").


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  #2517302 4-Jul-2020 18:24
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Kyanar:

 

gzt: 
So the real problem here is banks not issuing contactless (non-credit, non-debit) standard EFTPOS cards?

 

As I explained previously, this is not possible. The EFTPOS scheme operates with zero interchange, and zero scheme fees, meaning there is no incentive or ability to innovate. Due to the fact there's no resources available, the EFTPOS system is antiquated and missing important functionality such as an EMV contactless application. A bank can't produce a contactless EFTPOS card, because there's no application to put on the chip. This is in contrast to Australia where the very marginal 15c interchange fee for eftpos transactions means EPAL has actual money to work to develop things like contactless EMV applications.

 

 

It is of course possible, just they have no business case to do so. The two are quite different.


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  #2517305 4-Jul-2020 18:27
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Handle9:

 

It is of course possible, just they have no business case to do so. The two are quite different.

 

 

No, no, it's actually not possible. There is no application to put on the chip, and no single entity to produce one, and no single network to support it. When they broke EFTPOS into two companies owned by competing terminal manufacturers, they made it impossible for this to happen.


 
 
 
 


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  #2517315 4-Jul-2020 18:57
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Kyanar:

 

Handle9:

 

It is of course possible, just they have no business case to do so. The two are quite different.

 

 

No, no, it's actually not possible. There is no application to put on the chip, and no single entity to produce one, and no single network to support it. When they broke EFTPOS into two companies owned by competing terminal manufacturers, they made it impossible for this to happen.

 

 

There is no technical limitation to this, it is that there is no desire from the respective companies to do it. The two are different.


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  #2517352 4-Jul-2020 20:56
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Handle9:

 

There is no technical limitation to this, it is that there is no desire from the respective companies to do it. The two are different.

 

 

They really aren't different. The two competing networks will not collaborate (in fact, competitors cannot collaborate by law except within some very narrow exceptions, and creating a competing technology to harm Visa and Mastercard is definitely not one of those narrow exceptions). There are so many reasons that it's not possible that you just refuse to accept.


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  #2517385 4-Jul-2020 22:23
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richms:

 

Geektastic:

A visa debit card also only goes to one account. The ‘dumb’ EFTPOS cards are something I’ve only ever seen here.

 

Overseas they are called ATM cards because they dont have eftpos and all instore transactions are done thru visa or mastercard or in the USA a couple of other obscures.

 

What I mean is I only have the eftpos only card setup from an account on check that I never have much money in. Whereas the debit card goes to one with more money in it that I also pay bills out of and also is connected to the savings account. So if the swipey eftpos card is compromised because mag stripes are a stupid idea in the age of chip cards, then I dont lose too much until I deal with the bank to get it back.

 

 

 

 

That depends on what you mean. Overseas they DO have EFTPOS - it is an acronym standing for Electronic Funds Tranfer at Point Of Sale and is used elsewhere to refer to the card machines in stores and the network behind it. Here, I think it is actually a company.






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  #2517499 5-Jul-2020 11:23
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Geektastic:

 

That depends on what you mean. Overseas they DO have EFTPOS - it is an acronym standing for Electronic Funds Tranfer at Point Of Sale and is used elsewhere to refer to the card machines in stores and the network behind it. Here, I think it is actually a company.

 

 

It's two things. The term, EFTPOS (which is an acronym which you correctly point out), or the company, EFTPOS NZ (who are one of the companies that switch the transactions). In Australia, it's actually eftpos and is a scheme like Visa or MasterCard, administered by one entity with all the bank members in the scheme being shareholders in it (and a couple of outliers like Woolworths and First Data). New Zealand unlike Australia doesn't have a unified scheme and network/rails for transactions to switch through - there's at least two possible networks calling themselves EFTPOS (EFTPOS NZ and Paymark).

 

Think of an NZ EFTPOS card as being like a store card - every time you swipe it, it has to go back to the bank that issued it to determine if the transaction can proceed. In Australia, there's centralised switching following a standard (more like Maestro, Plus, or even Visa and MasterCard themselves)


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  #2517606 5-Jul-2020 16:10
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Kyanar:

Handle9:


There is no technical limitation to this, it is that there is no desire from the respective companies to do it. The two are different.



They really aren't different. The two competing networks will not collaborate (in fact, competitors cannot collaborate by law except within some very narrow exceptions, and creating a competing technology to harm Visa and Mastercard is definitely not one of those narrow exceptions). There are so many reasons that it's not possible that you just refuse to accept.



Once again this is the will of the two companies not that they can't. If they were sufficiently motivated they would find a way to deal with it.

Industry collaboration on standards is possible between competitors, particularly if it makes the market more open. They have to want to do it. They clearly don't want to as they have no reason that is in their interests to do so.

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  #2517634 5-Jul-2020 18:12
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Geektastic:

dafman:


1st world problem. Paywave saves you what, three valuable seconds over swiping and entering a 4 digit PIN for eptpos?




It saves me picking up other people's germs etc be they covid, the common cold, unwashed hands from a toilet visit or whatever...



What do you do when you go over the pay wave limit and have to enter a manual PIN?




Regards,

Old3eyes


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  #2517638 5-Jul-2020 18:17
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Handle9:

Once again this is the will of the two companies not that they can't. If they were sufficiently motivated they would find a way to deal with it.

Industry collaboration on standards is possible between competitors, particularly if it makes the market more open. They have to want to do it. They clearly don't want to as they have no reason that is in their interests to do so.

 

For like the billionth time, it's not going to happen, it can't happen, for so many reasons you refuse to accept. Get over it. You're talking about two non-standard competing implementations of a non-standard switching network, you cannot make an EMV application for it without rebuilding the thing, and since those two companies happen to be competitors, that ain't possible. If NZ's EFTPOS networks had been standardised (like the protocol in Australia, which actually is a published AS) and had an associated revenue stream, it's possible that it could be enhanced. But that didn't happen, so it's basically stuck in the dark ages. This is the last I'll say to you on this topic until you get your head out and start listening.


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  #2517640 5-Jul-2020 18:24
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Kyanar:

 

Handle9:

Once again this is the will of the two companies not that they can't. If they were sufficiently motivated they would find a way to deal with it.

Industry collaboration on standards is possible between competitors, particularly if it makes the market more open. They have to want to do it. They clearly don't want to as they have no reason that is in their interests to do so.

 

For like the billionth time, it's not going to happen, it can't happen, for so many reasons you refuse to accept. Get over it. You're talking about two non-standard competing implementations of a non-standard switching network, you cannot make an EMV application for it without rebuilding the thing, and since those two companies happen to be competitors, that ain't possible. If NZ's EFTPOS networks had been standardised (like the protocol in Australia, which actually is a published AS) and had an associated revenue stream, it's possible that it could be enhanced. But that didn't happen, so it's basically stuck in the dark ages. This is the last I'll say to you on this topic until you get your head out and start listening.

 

 

When you provide a logical why it can't happen I'll listen. You just described what would be required to make it happen, it is possible. It requires significant change in the business model and this is likely to eventually happen by regulation rather than by the choice of the companies involved.

 

I agree it is incredibly unlikely that it will happen but that isn't the same as can't.


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