Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
1046 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2520275 9-Jul-2020 18:50
Send private message quote this post

Regarding Titanium,

 

You would be hard pressed to find any company which wants to set up a big heavy industrial plant for a commodity product in NZ these days. There are other contries with cheaper power, labor and more relaxed environmental standards.


1046 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2520278 9-Jul-2020 18:54
Send private message quote this post

frankv:

 

Well, no. It's only a subsidy if they pay less for the energy than it costs to generate and deliver to them. How much you pay for electricity is pretty much irrelevant.

 

 

How much is paid is completly relevant. If electricity is being sold below market price (accounting for transmission costs, and costs of building new transmission capacity etc), the function is that of a subsidy.

 

That said, it is possible that the power company was willing to sell power at a discount to the smelter, knowing their demand would hold up wholesale prices, allowing them to make more money from their other generation capacity.


 
 
 
 


1218 posts

Uber Geek


  #2520295 9-Jul-2020 19:16
Send private message quote this post

It is a sad day for every kiwi and for every environmentalist.

 

It wasn't high electricity prices as such but high electricity transmission costs. They paid ~13% (?) of the national transmission costs because everyone is charged for the volume of electricity they use, not the distance or infrastructure that the electricity is transmitted over - that isn't fair user pays. This means the north island electricity consumer paid approx the same transmission costs for electricity moved over ~1,000km that Rio Tino did for electricity moved over ~200km so were being subsidized by Rio Tino and will now pay higher/fairer transmission costs.

 

It is a sad day for the environment because the aluminum will still be refined, just in another country with cheap dirty coal instead of clean cheap hydro with inflated transmission costs. It doesn't matter where the C02 is being made, it adversely affects the entire globe.


4148 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2520297 9-Jul-2020 19:20
Send private message quote this post

Scott3:

frankv:


Well, no. It's only a subsidy if they pay less for the energy than it costs to generate and deliver to them. How much you pay for electricity is pretty much irrelevant.



How much is paid is completly relevant. If electricity is being sold below market price (accounting for transmission costs, and costs of building new transmission capacity etc), the function is that of a subsidy.


That said, it is possible that the power company was willing to sell power at a discount to the smelter, knowing their demand would hold up wholesale prices, allowing them to make more money from their other generation capacity.



So someone who gets a discount for buying a fleet of cars is getting a subsidy? It's simple commercial logic - the bigger your buying power the lower price you pay.

339 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2520301 9-Jul-2020 19:34
Send private message quote this post

You must also remember that Manapouri was built for the smelter. I am sure they have paid for it many times over by now. You cant just look at todays situation without taking into account the politics of 40 years ago and the "Think Big" mentality. Taranaki was also built during this time.

 

You also need to look at the impact of it shutting down...the full impact. Considering the age of the plant (one of the potlines was closed down already at the request of Meridian due to high demand during lockdown), and the fact modern aircraft are now made for composites it could well be time for it to go.

 

To compare apples with apples you need to discover (which would be very difficult) what the cost price per unit is from Manapouri and then decide if they are getting it too cheap. Also you need to look at Australian smelter sand see what they are purchasing power for (albeit dirty energy). 

 

My opinion is that if extra billions are needed to build an infrastructure to get Manapouri electricity to the North Island than the North should pay for it. After all Tiwai have been paying way more for transmission charges than anyone else. It could be said that smelter has been subsidising Aucklands power prices to a small degree.


10615 posts

Uber Geek


  #2520302 9-Jul-2020 19:37
Send private message quote this post

Handle9:
Fred99:

 

Alternatives to use the power?  Maybe titanium?  There's ilmenite on the SI West Coast, energy use per Kg is about double that of smelting aluminium, but market price is triple.  Upside would be that possibly existing staff skills could be utilised, downside - it's another commodity that has been on a long-term downward price trend, and I guess most users don't care if it's been produced "green". 

 



It'd be far cheaper to do it off shore with cheap power.

 

So with the (local) surplus, that argument applies to everything that we could use the power for - except sending it up North.


4148 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2520315 9-Jul-2020 20:13
Send private message quote this post

Fred99:

Handle9:

It'd be far cheaper to do it off shore with cheap power.


So with the (local) surplus, that argument applies to everything that we could use the power for - except sending it up North.


Yes. There is no business case for energy intensive industry in a country for high energy costs.

 
 
 
 


10615 posts

Uber Geek


  #2520322 9-Jul-2020 20:34
Send private message quote this post

Handle9:
Yes. There is no business case for energy intensive industry in a country for high energy costs.

 

I'd expect that the energy cost from Manapouri would be very low.  We have high energy prices  - they aren't the same thing.


4148 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2520328 9-Jul-2020 20:47
Send private message quote this post

Fred99:

Handle9:
Yes. There is no business case for energy intensive industry in a country for high energy costs.


I'd expect that the energy cost from Manapouri would be very low.  We have high energy prices  - they aren't the same thing.



What does it matter? It's not going to change anytime soon.

798 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2520402 9-Jul-2020 22:21
Send private message quote this post

Mahon:

 

You must also remember that Manapouri was built for the smelter. I am sure they have paid for it many times over by now. You cant just look at todays situation without taking into account the politics of 40 years ago and the "Think Big" mentality. Taranaki was also built during this time.

 

You also need to look at the impact of it shutting down...the full impact. Considering the age of the plant (one of the potlines was closed down already at the request of Meridian due to high demand during lockdown), and the fact modern aircraft are now made for composites it could well be time for it to go.

 

To compare apples with apples you need to discover (which would be very difficult) what the cost price per unit is from Manapouri and then decide if they are getting it too cheap. Also you need to look at Australian smelter sand see what they are purchasing power for (albeit dirty energy). 

 

My opinion is that if extra billions are needed to build an infrastructure to get Manapouri electricity to the North Island than the North should pay for it. After all Tiwai have been paying way more for transmission charges than anyone else. It could be said that smelter has been subsidising Aucklands power prices to a small degree.

 

 

"the North should pay for it."

 

By that "logic" the Sth should have paid the full bill of the Kaikoura and ChCh EQ's too right? :/


1046 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2520424 9-Jul-2020 22:24
Send private message quote this post

Handle9:

So someone who gets a discount for buying a fleet of cars is getting a subsidy? It's simple commercial logic - the bigger your buying power the lower price you pay.

 

I think you have a point. It would only be a subsidy if the seller was operating at a loss on the fleet sales.


1046 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2520431 9-Jul-2020 22:33
Send private message quote this post

Mahon:

 

My opinion is that if extra billions are needed to build an infrastructure to get Manapouri electricity to the North Island than the North should pay for it. After all Tiwai have been paying way more for transmission charges than anyone else. It could be said that smelter has been subsidising Aucklands power prices to a small degree.

 

 

My understanding is that Transpower reworked their fee schedule earlier this year to get rid of the historic sharing of transmission charges around the country, instead allocating to those who got benefit from the transmission.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121765229/some-consumers-will-pay-more-with-new-way-to-carve-up-transpowers-1b-bill

 

Frankly this is the economically efficient way to do it, and it is a bit disappointing it took so long to make the change.

 

But seen as it has been made, I would expect the cost of any future investment to feed power to the north would be paid for by those benefiting from it.


339 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2520498 10-Jul-2020 00:57
Send private message quote this post

driller2000:

 

Mahon:

 

You must also remember that Manapouri was built for the smelter. I am sure they have paid for it many times over by now. You cant just look at todays situation without taking into account the politics of 40 years ago and the "Think Big" mentality. Taranaki was also built during this time.

 

You also need to look at the impact of it shutting down...the full impact. Considering the age of the plant (one of the potlines was closed down already at the request of Meridian due to high demand during lockdown), and the fact modern aircraft are now made for composites it could well be time for it to go.

 

To compare apples with apples you need to discover (which would be very difficult) what the cost price per unit is from Manapouri and then decide if they are getting it too cheap. Also you need to look at Australian smelter sand see what they are purchasing power for (albeit dirty energy). 

 

My opinion is that if extra billions are needed to build an infrastructure to get Manapouri electricity to the North Island than the North should pay for it. After all Tiwai have been paying way more for transmission charges than anyone else. It could be said that smelter has been subsidising Aucklands power prices to a small degree.

 

 

"the North should pay for it."

 

By that "logic" the Sth should have paid the full bill of the Kaikoura and ChCh EQ's too right? :/

 

 

I think you will find that the damage to Wellington and surrounds was massive.


16525 posts

Uber Geek


  #2520500 10-Jul-2020 01:37
Send private message quote this post

tripper1000:

 

It is a sad day for every kiwi and for every environmentalist.

 

It wasn't high electricity prices as such but high electricity transmission costs. They paid ~13% (?) of the national transmission costs because everyone is charged for the volume of electricity they use, not the distance or infrastructure that the electricity is transmitted over - that isn't fair user pays. This means the north island electricity consumer paid approx the same transmission costs for electricity moved over ~1,000km that Rio Tino did for electricity moved over ~200km so were being subsidized by Rio Tino and will now pay higher/fairer transmission costs.

 

It is a sad day for the environment because the aluminum will still be refined, just in another country with cheap dirty coal instead of clean cheap hydro with inflated transmission costs. It doesn't matter where the C02 is being made, it adversely affects the entire globe.

 

 

 

 

Yeap. That is why I wonder why green people are so for this move. They have even claimed it will lead to cheaper powers for NZers. But I am not so sure, because the generation capacity will still be there, but a large customer will have disappeared, but the generation maintenance costs  may not decrease much.


10615 posts

Uber Geek


  #2520546 10-Jul-2020 08:49
Send private message quote this post

Handle9:

What does it matter? It's not going to change anytime soon.

 

But maybe it should - if there was a case to use it (energy from Manapouri) for zero CO2 production of "something" that's currently damaging the global environment.

 

It's quite a unique situation - having a surplus of 24/7 green electricity.

 

 


1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic




News »

Pre-orders for Huawei MateBook 13 open now
Posted 14-Aug-2020 14:26


Freeview On Demand app launches on Sony Android TVs
Posted 6-Aug-2020 13:35


UFB hits more than one million connections
Posted 6-Aug-2020 09:42


D-Link A/NZ extends COVR Wi-Fi EasyMesh System series with new three-pack
Posted 4-Aug-2020 15:01


New Zealand software Rfider tracks coffee from Colombia all the way to New Zealand businesses
Posted 3-Aug-2020 10:35


Logitech G launches Pro X Wireless gaming headset
Posted 3-Aug-2020 10:21


Sony Alpha 7S III provides supreme imaging performance
Posted 3-Aug-2020 10:11


Sony introduces first CFexpress Type A memory card
Posted 3-Aug-2020 10:05


Marsello acquires Goody consolidating online and in-store marketing position
Posted 30-Jul-2020 16:26


Fonterra first major customer for Microsoft's New Zealand datacentre
Posted 30-Jul-2020 08:07


Everything we learnt at the IBM Cloud Forum 2020
Posted 29-Jul-2020 14:45


Dropbox launches native HelloSign workflow and data residency in Australia
Posted 29-Jul-2020 12:48


Spark launches 5G in Palmerston North
Posted 29-Jul-2020 09:50


Lenovo brings speed and smarter features to new 5G mobile gaming phone
Posted 28-Jul-2020 22:00


Withings raises $60 million to enable bridge between patients and healthcare
Posted 28-Jul-2020 21:51



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.