NCEA Review -biggest change to the NZ education system for over 20 years

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#2692834 14-Apr-2021 17:32

Fred99:

mdooher:

The reason they are using a not insignificant number of Maori words is the same reason managers talk in corporate speak. They are trying make themselves sound more important and knowledgeable than they are actually are.

Congratulations for making possibly the dumbest and unsubtly racist comment so far in this thread.

Hardly. While I don't know that I necessarily agree with @mdooher on the reason for the "not insignificant" number of Maori words, I don't see that anything he said can be interpreted as racist.

I have no skin in the game as I'm not a parent. But Te Reo speakers ARE a small percentage of the population, that's just a fact. By all means they can use as much Te Reo as they want, it's an official language and I have no objections; but they should absolutely at least include an English translation.

Those who think that it's racist to object to so much of it being ONLY in Te Reo must be looking for things to get offended about.

Students may be familiar with many of these terms already, but I'd bet good money most of the parents aren't.

Starlith

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#2692854 14-Apr-2021 18:09

Paul1977:

Hardly. While I don't know that I necessarily agree with @mdooher on the reason for the "not insignificant" number of Maori words, I don't see that anything he said can be interpreted as racist.

I have no skin in the game as I'm not a parent. But Te Reo speakers ARE a small percentage of the population, that's just a fact. By all means they can use as much Te Reo as they want, it's an official language and I have no objections; but they should absolutely at least include an English translation.

Those who think that it's racist to object to so much of it being ONLY in Te Reo must be looking for things to get offended about.

Students may be familiar with many of these terms already, but I'd bet good money most of the parents aren't.

The important thing to know is that this is for students, aka the future generation.

Parents should be learning this stuff too or they risk becoming conservative dinosaurs, nothing wrong with it but they will struggle to cope in the changing world much like how technology constantly changes.

There will be more Maori culture creeping into our society whether you like it or not due to Treaty obligations and political willpower, this doesn't mean Pakeha culture will be ignored but it also doesn't mean Maori culture will take a backseat. Regardless of the amount of Maori speakers the Crown has an obligation to treat Maori culture and Pakeha culture equally in all aspects of society, this was never the case in the past.

Fred99

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#2692864 14-Apr-2021 18:35

Starlith:

The important thing to know is that this is for students, aka the future generation.

Absolutely.

As any NZ citizen, Te Reo is one of "our" three recognised languages.

As for the comparison to indecipherable jargon and invented buzzwords used by some idiots in the corporate world, that's a whole different topic. However I'd say that just because you don't understand the word, don't assume that the person using it was trying to prove that they are more clever than you are. Be sure they are doing that, otherwise they might have just proven a point. They might have actually been trying to present a new word or concept for perfectly valid reasons and with good intent. Ask them, nobody should ever be shot for asking a reasonable question.

Paul1977

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#2692865 14-Apr-2021 18:37

Starlith:

The important thing to know is that this is for students, aka the future generation.

Parents should be learning this stuff too or they risk becoming conservative dinosaurs, nothing wrong with it but they will struggle to cope in the changing world much like how technology constantly changes.

There will be more Maori culture creeping into our society whether you like it or not due to Treaty obligations and political willpower, this doesn't mean Pakeha culture will be ignored but it also doesn't mean Maori culture will take a backseat. Regardless of the amount of Maori speakers the Crown has an obligation to treat Maori culture and Pakeha culture equally in all aspects of society, this was never the case in the past.

For NCEA Level 1 these curriculum proposals are very much for the parents as well as the students, I'd argue more for the parents to be honest.

Regardless, nothing I said undermines any of the points you made. In fact, I specifically said I have no issue with them using as much Te Reo as they wish. I just don't think English-only speaking parents should have to look up translations to understand these proposals. If they're meant to be accessible for all students and parents then excluding the English versions of so many words and terms is a huge fail.

Paul1977

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#2692867 14-Apr-2021 18:40

Fred99:

As any NZ citizen, Te Reo is one of "our" three recognised languages.

And so is English, which is spoken, read, and understood by far more than the other two combined. I didn't say get rid of any of the Te Reo, just that there shouldn't be parts that are ONLY in Te Reo.

Lias

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#2692868 14-Apr-2021 18:41

Fred99:

If you want to start attacking theistic / spiritualist beliefs, perhaps start with the predominant and deeply embedded bearded man in the sky worship in anglo-centric culture.\

Err did you miss the bit where I said I haven't been arguing for removing Christianity from schools to have it replaced by this or creationism or anything else? There is no place for religion or spiritualism or any sort in schools curriculums.

I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad, a Quic user, and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. If you use my Quic signup you can also use the code R570394EKGIZ8 for free setup.

Lias

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#2692871 14-Apr-2021 18:47

Paul1977:

And so is English, which is spoken, read, and understood by far more than the other two combined. I didn't say get rid of any of the Te Reo, just that there shouldn't be parts that are ONLY in Te Reo.

I suspect the arguments will be that some things don't translate well and also that much of the Te Reo used (or at least the bits I read) is relatively well known amongst non speakers. I don't recall seeing anything I didn't know at least.

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Paul1977

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#2692880 14-Apr-2021 19:37

Lias:

Paul1977:

And so is English, which is spoken, read, and understood by far more than the other two combined. I didn't say get rid of any of the Te Reo, just that there shouldn't be parts that are ONLY in Te Reo.

I suspect the arguments will be that some things don't translate well and also that much of the Te Reo used (or at least the bits I read) is relatively well known amongst non speakers. I don't recall seeing anything I didn't know at least.

Some things don’t translate well, but most do.

There were a lot I didn’t know. To be fair I know very little past Whanau, Mana, Kai, and Puku - but I doubt I’m an outlier in that regard.

Fred99

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#2692884 14-Apr-2021 19:51

Lias:

Err did you miss the bit where I said I haven't been arguing for removing Christianity from schools to have it replaced by this or creationism or anything else? There is no place for religion or spiritualism or any sort in schools curriculums.

No I didn't miss anything - including the part where you assumed that the maori words used had "religious" meaning in the context they were used.

Fred99

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#2692889 14-Apr-2021 20:02

Paul1977:

I just don't think English-only speaking parents should have to look up translations to understand these proposals.

Oh I sure do. Hopefully it'll do them good too - or at least shut them up for 2 seconds a word. Sh*t I'd hate to be a teacher these days, now that so many parents have PhD s in education from the University of Talkback Radio.

Fred99

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#2692894 14-Apr-2021 20:09

Paul1977:

I didn't say get rid of any of the ~~Te Reo~~ Maori words, just that there shouldn't be parts that are ONLY in ~~Te Reo~~ Maori.

FTFY

Ever been hoist by your own petard?

Do you get it now?

Paul1977

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#2693063 15-Apr-2021 10:07

Fred99:

Paul1977:

I didn't say get rid of any of the Te Reo Maori words, just that there shouldn't be parts that are ONLY in Te Reo Maori.

FTFY

Ever been hoist by your own petard?

Do you get it now?

@Fred99 touché.

I thought saying Te Reo was the more accepted and respectful way of referring to the Maori language (even when speaking in English)? To be honest I would probably just say Maori to a completely non-Maori audience.

I see your point that technically I was doing the same thing I was objecting to. But I was also considering the audience I was speaking to by intentionally saying Te Reo rather than Maori - I didn't think that anyone in the Geekzone forums wouldn't know what Te Reo meant.

But (unlike Te Reo) do you truly believe Ᾱkonga, Papatūānuku, or matauranga (as examples) are words that the majority of the population knows?

Fred99

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#2693115 15-Apr-2021 11:12

Paul1977:

But (unlike Te Reo) do you truly believe Ᾱkonga, Papatūānuku, or matauranga (as examples) are words that the majority of the population knows?

A few decades ago the same could have been said about whanau, te reo, kai, aroha, hui, etc. - words now in common use in NZ English.

Paul1977

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#2693117 15-Apr-2021 11:22

Fred99:

A few decades ago the same could have been said about whanau, te reo, kai, aroha, hui, etc. - words now in common use in NZ English.

Perhaps, but examples I gave (I believe) are not CURRENTLY commonly known by a large portion of the population. Anyway, this is quite off topic from the original intent of the thread - and neither of us is likely to change the others opinion so we can agree to disagree.

Zeon

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#2693118 15-Apr-2021 11:25

Unsuprisingly its heavily linked to this governments politics of forcing Maori culture to be dominant in New Zealand rather than allowing the country to evolve naturally. Just like the Coronavirus, education is politicised with their desires (which they don't campaign on) such as renaming the country.

Randomly using Maori words in every day language will work against children's interests. You will end up with situations like in India or Malaysia where the elite can speak standard English and participate in the global economy (probably taught through private instutions) while your everyday kiwi kid will be stuck speaking a bastardised English/Maori combo language that can only be used in New Zealand.

It also will degrade the Maori language as the grammar etc. will be lost as people can only speak the combined language.

If you want kids to learn Maori that's fine but teach it as a standalone subject.

I do really question whether this government realises this or they actually want to create a 2-tier society.

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