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Kiwifruta
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  #2732944 23-Jun-2021 10:22
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sxz:

 

dafman:

 

When I become Prime Minister, my first task before morning tea will be to strip religious entities of their tax free status.

 

Why should we who pay our fair share have to tolerate snake oil salesmen (you know, ageing old men dressing like teenagers, giving themselves self aggrandising titles) thumbing their nose at the rest of us while they strut though a tax free life.

 

And then there’s family first - currently at the Supreme Court trying to preserve their charitable status to avoid paying any tax. They are 100% religious political lobbyists (primarily, one old man) spouting 1950’s ignorance, 0% charity IMHO. At the very least, they can pay tax.

 

Sigh, rant over.

 

 

 

 

I'd back you on that.  There is 100% no good reason for religion to be a charity.  If religion are meant to do good, what better way than to CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY and pay tax to help pay for roads, hospitals, schools, pools, libraries, mental health support, maternaty leave and all those other lovely things we like to enjoy in our society.

 

 

 

 

As someone who is religious, I can vouch that mental health support is provided by paying for counsellors to those that ask for help. There are also many other services provided in the community of which there is no tax payer funded government provided alternative, e.g. meals delivered to new mothers. Religious organisations are able to provide services to the community more cheaply than government organisations because they use unpaid volunteers rather than paid workers to provide these services. Therefore are able to provide more services per dollar spent.

 

 

 

Here are examples of some, not an exhaustive list, church connected organisations providing service to the community

 

https://www.latterdaysaintcharities.org/

 

https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/

 

https://adra.org/

 

https://www.nadadventist.org/departments/adventist-community-services

 

https://www.salvationarmy.org.nz/centres/#!/welfare

 

 

 

 

 

 


elpenguino
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  #2732957 23-Jun-2021 10:46
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Kiwifruta:

 

There are also many other services provided in the community... <SNIP>

 

 

That's all good and really what religion is supposed to be about. People helping people, and themselves.

 

To many people there is no difference in logical substance behind any of the deity based religions. It takes a lot of faith to ignore the doubts one should have.

 

As Ricky Gervais asks in his routine, why does God give AIDS to babies? 

 

 

 

A blanket tax rule is way easier to have rather than piecemeal judgements on whether a particular, say, bearded, sandal wearing deity is tax free, but my, say, flying, food-based deity is not.

 

You might argue that the Spaghetti Monster was deliberately made up as a spoof or with cynical aims. In which, case the creator of Scientology can be accused of the same thing.

 

Regarding your point about volunteer services. If religion was dumped overnight, volunteer services could still carry on under a secular umbrella.





Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21


dafman
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  #2732958 23-Jun-2021 10:46
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Kiwifruta:

 

As someone who is religious, I can vouch that mental health support is provided by paying for counsellors to those that ask for help. There are also many other services provided in the community of which there is no tax payer funded government provided alternative, e.g. meals delivered to new mothers. Religious organisations are able to provide services to the community more cheaply than government organisations because they use unpaid volunteers rather than paid workers to provide these services. Therefore are able to provide more services per dollar spent.

 

 

Thanks, I absolutely agree with you that many organisations attached to religion provide valuable services to the community.

 

So, too, do many individuals who are not attached to any specific organisation, religious or otherwise.

 

Yet the religious organisations don't pay tax, while the individuals do.

 

Personally, I'd tax all charitable organisations on their excess income over expenses. But I would ring fence the tax received from charitable organisations for redistribution via welfare service grants back into the community. This way, there is no net loss, but it is a level playing field for all individuals and organisations in the country, regardless of purpose, commercial, religious or charitable.

 

The problem with tax exemptions is that you open up the system for routs. Take Sanitarium - a commercial multi-million company no different to the likes of Kellogg, for example. But Sanitarium are tax exempt as they are owned by a church, therefore they don't pay any tax - nada, zero, zip. So when a NZ Herald investigation some years back uncovered Sanitarium had tens of millions invested in offshore investments, you have to ask the question?

 

 




Rikkitic
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  #2732974 23-Jun-2021 11:10
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Without getting into faith-bashing, I have to wonder why religion needs to be an umbrella for good works. Surely people who help other people in church would also do the same in a community centre. I simply don't believe that religion is necessary to remind people to act in a moral and selfless way. There are plenty of non-religious clubs dedicated to exactly that. Rotary might be an example (I don't know much about them).

 

 


Fred99
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  #2733096 23-Jun-2021 13:01
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Australian taxpayers fund these schools:

 

Boys at a northern beaches Anglican school were told to choose the qualities they looked for in a girl from a list that allocated more points for virginity, looks, and strong Christian values than for generosity and adventurousness.

 

Some boys laughingly described their task as “build a bitch”.

 

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/school-asked-boys-to-use-rating-system-on-girls-female-students-taught-to-keep-virginity-20210622-p58358.html

 

 


Kyanar
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  #2733121 23-Jun-2021 13:12
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dafman:

 

The problem with tax exemptions is that you open up the system for routs. Take Sanitarium - a commercial multi-million company no different to the likes of Kellogg, for example. But Sanitarium are tax exempt as they are owned by a church, therefore they don't pay any tax - nada, zero, zip. So when a NZ Herald investigation some years back uncovered Sanitarium had tens of millions invested in offshore investments, you have to ask the question?

 

 

No, you don't have to ask the question because that's actually not correct. Sanitarium is not exempt from tax at all. They're still required to pay GST, still required to pay PAYG for employees, they're even required to pay income tax on profits. They have no exemptions from paying tax not available to any other company. The fact of the matter is, Sanitarium does make zero profit, since literally every dollar above expenses is channelled into charitable causes (noting that the charitable cause is the Seventh Day Adventist Church, I acknowledge that many of those causes may not necessarily be agreeable to you. I agree that mere advancement of religion does not qualify as charitable, however the Seventh Day Adventist Church also has many charitable arms such as the Adventist Development Relief Agency which provides non-denominational recovery support in disasters, and their sponsorship of community sport and suchlike as part of their church's rather peculiar obsession with nutrition and wellness).

 

An Australian example is that Sanitarium is commonly held up as a "bad" company because it "doesn't pay (income) tax", yet Dick Smith (yes, that Dick Smith) also had a food company that did not pay (income) tax because all profits went to charity.

 

Offshore investments, by the way, do reduce income tax - even for Kellog or Kraft.


Kiwifruta
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  #2733142 23-Jun-2021 13:35
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Kyanar:

 

dafman:

 

The problem with tax exemptions is that you open up the system for routs. Take Sanitarium - a commercial multi-million company no different to the likes of Kellogg, for example. But Sanitarium are tax exempt as they are owned by a church, therefore they don't pay any tax - nada, zero, zip. So when a NZ Herald investigation some years back uncovered Sanitarium had tens of millions invested in offshore investments, you have to ask the question?

 

 

No, you don't have to ask the question because that's actually not correct. Sanitarium is not exempt from tax at all. They're still required to pay GST, still required to pay PAYG for employees, they're even required to pay income tax on profits. They have no exemptions from paying tax not available to any other company. The fact of the matter is, Sanitarium does make zero profit, since literally every dollar above expenses is channelled into charitable causes (noting that the charitable cause is the Seventh Day Adventist Church, I acknowledge that many of those causes may not necessarily be agreeable to you. I agree that mere advancement of religion does not qualify as charitable, however the Seventh Day Adventist Church also has many charitable arms such as the Adventist Development Relief Agency which provides non-denominational recovery support in disasters, and their sponsorship of community sport and suchlike as part of their church's rather peculiar obsession with nutrition and wellness).

 

An Australian example is that Sanitarium is commonly held up as a "bad" company because it "doesn't pay (income) tax", yet Dick Smith (yes, that Dick Smith) also had a food company that did not pay (income) tax because all profits went to charity.

 

Offshore investments, by the way, do reduce income tax - even for Kellog or Kraft.

 

 

Glad someone is clearing up the misinformation and half-truths used to slander Sanitarium and the Seventh Day Adventist church.

 

I'm not a member of the church but all my dealings with members of their church both in secular and ecclesiastical encounters have been excellent and with wonderful people.




Kiwifruta
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  #2733144 23-Jun-2021 13:37
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Rikkitic:

 

Without getting into faith-bashing, I have to wonder why religion needs to be an umbrella for good works. Surely people who help other people in church would also do the same in a community centre. I simply don't believe that religion is necessary to remind people to act in a moral and selfless way. There are plenty of non-religious clubs dedicated to exactly that. Rotary might be an example (I don't know much about them).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your innate moral standards are higher than mine then, I surely need the regular reminding the scriptures give me.


Fred99
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  #2733147 23-Jun-2021 13:44
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Kiwifruta:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Without getting into faith-bashing, I have to wonder why religion needs to be an umbrella for good works. Surely people who help other people in church would also do the same in a community centre. I simply don't believe that religion is necessary to remind people to act in a moral and selfless way. There are plenty of non-religious clubs dedicated to exactly that. Rotary might be an example (I don't know much about them).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your innate moral standards are higher than mine then, I surely need the regular reminding the scriptures give me.

 

 

Oh dear.


dafman
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  #2733152 23-Jun-2021 13:54
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Kyanar:

 

dafman:

 

The problem with tax exemptions is that you open up the system for routs. Take Sanitarium - a commercial multi-million company no different to the likes of Kellogg, for example. But Sanitarium are tax exempt as they are owned by a church, therefore they don't pay any tax - nada, zero, zip. So when a NZ Herald investigation some years back uncovered Sanitarium had tens of millions invested in offshore investments, you have to ask the question?

 

 

No, you don't have to ask the question because that's actually not correct. Sanitarium is not exempt from tax at all. They're still required to pay GST, still required to pay PAYG for employees, they're even required to pay income tax on profits. They have no exemptions from paying tax not available to any other company. The fact of the matter is, Sanitarium does make zero profit, since literally every dollar above expenses is channelled into charitable causes (noting that the charitable cause is the Seventh Day Adventist Church, I acknowledge that many of those causes may not necessarily be agreeable to you. I agree that mere advancement of religion does not qualify as charitable, however the Seventh Day Adventist Church also has many charitable arms such as the Adventist Development Relief Agency which provides non-denominational recovery support in disasters, and their sponsorship of community sport and suchlike as part of their church's rather peculiar obsession with nutrition and wellness).

 

An Australian example is that Sanitarium is commonly held up as a "bad" company because it "doesn't pay (income) tax", yet Dick Smith (yes, that Dick Smith) also had a food company that did not pay (income) tax because all profits went to charity.

 

Offshore investments, by the way, do reduce income tax - even for Kellog or Kraft.

 

 

You are incorrect. Sanitarium is exempt from income tax. "Sanitarium is a registered charity and has been granted income tax exemption status by the Internal Revenue Department. Sanitarium’s primary purpose is the promotion of health food products." https://www.sanitarium.co.nz/about/sanitarium-story/profits-for-purpose

 

And PAYE is tax paid by employees, not a company. The company merely deducts it from an employee's pay on their behalf.

 

And as for charitable causes - Sanitarium state their primary purpose as "the promotion of health food products." This is a company that profit from packing NZ primary schools with vending machines dispensing high-sugar confectionery drinks on demand to children.


scuwp
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  #2733161 23-Jun-2021 14:06
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ezbee:

 

If you can keep up the pretense of required rhetoric without gaging, starting a Church/Religion it is a great way to create a tax free enterprise.
This can then support you in the style you deserve, and you can no doubt claim back all sorts of living expenses. 

Houses in different nice resorts so you can carry out your mission in different places.
Executive jets and running costs for same reasons.
That world trip to take your mission global, or simply visit nice places you decide are significant to your religion.
Even have your own cruise ship full of people to serve you if that's your thing.

 

As the story of Glorivale starts to have parallels with Centerpoint.
I do wonder what protections can we give children who are bought up in to this they did not choose to give their lives.

When and if they want to go a different direction they are left bereft of education and material capability to leave with anything more that their clothes.
Yet they contributed to the organization as they took up only non paying jobs on offer, and should by rights have a share to cash in.

 

Its perhaps time to limit special status to charitable works to community, and religion as a business can pay tax etc.
However it needs tight oversight and there maybe a time to tax to pay for this, as its seem resource is lacking to investigate.

 

Oh there are those that do a lot of good in the community, and it may sometimes be ones you would think of.

 

Remember what Sikh were doing, expanding on their everyday charitable works to feed many during the lockdowns. 
Many others sure, but then there were also many that kept to themselves and their profitable works.

 

 

 

 

Mark Mason's second book "Everything is F****d" give a great rundown on how to create a new religion, and how to get people to join.  It's just exploiting existing human behaviors. There is a reason religions start by focusing on the impoverished areas of society first, and it's nothing to do with the bollocks about helping.  





Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman



Kyanar
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  #2733172 23-Jun-2021 14:29
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dafman:

 

You are incorrect. Sanitarium is exempt from income tax. "Sanitarium is a registered charity and has been granted income tax exemption status by the Internal Revenue Department. Sanitarium’s primary purpose is the promotion of health food products." https://www.sanitarium.co.nz/about/sanitarium-story/profits-for-purpose

 

And PAYE is tax paid by employees, not a company. The company merely deducts it on an employee's pay on their behalf.

 

And as for charitable causes - Sanitarium state their primary purpose as "the promotion of health food products." This is a company that profit from packing NZ primary schools with vending machines dispensing high-sugar confectionery drinks on demand to children.

 

 

You are incorrect. You are aware that charities cannot actually profit, right? Any "extra cash" they get can only be used as reserve against future charitable activities or expenses. You're also forgetting that Sanitarium sponsors school sports, community sporting events, and so on, because nutrition and fitness go hand in hand - sugar is still one of those macronutrients your body requires some of, in moderation, combined with appropriate physical activity.

 

No, they don't profit from "vending machines dispensing high-sugar confectionary drinks on demand to children" (ignoring also that children have massively higher macronutrient intake requirements during their physical development compared to us adults, and that the extra sugar is basically nothing to them provided they're also active and not sitting around playing Xbox or Playstation all day).

 

Any money Sanitarium (New Zealand Conference Association Limited) makes in New Zealand goes straight up to the Seventh Day Adventist Church, whee they use it for things like running Aged Care facilities and Schools, providing Disaster Relief, sponsoring community sport and recreation, and - yes, the one I'm not fond of either, funding "advancement of religion". Looking at their annual reports, they definitely don't profit at the group level - their income is less than expenditures. According to their annual report, Sanitarium makes SFA after paying their employees and suppliers (something I think they should keep doing thank-you-very-much).

 

As charities go, the Seventh Day Adventists are certainly not the first one I'd be having a bit of a whine about. At least their money goes on paying hard working employees, and actual beneficial stuff (I really can't even see much actual "advancement of religion" in their reports at all!) - seems like more of an axe to grind than anything else.


dafman
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  #2733208 23-Jun-2021 15:08
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Kyanar:

 

dafman:

 

You are incorrect. Sanitarium is exempt from income tax. "Sanitarium is a registered charity and has been granted income tax exemption status by the Internal Revenue Department. Sanitarium’s primary purpose is the promotion of health food products." https://www.sanitarium.co.nz/about/sanitarium-story/profits-for-purpose

 

And PAYE is tax paid by employees, not a company. The company merely deducts it on an employee's pay on their behalf.

 

And as for charitable causes - Sanitarium state their primary purpose as "the promotion of health food products." This is a company that profit from packing NZ primary schools with vending machines dispensing high-sugar confectionery drinks on demand to children.

 

 

You are incorrect. You are aware that charities cannot actually profit, right? Any "extra cash" they get can only be used as reserve against future charitable activities or expenses. You're also forgetting that Sanitarium sponsors school sports, community sporting events, and so on, because nutrition and fitness go hand in hand - sugar is still one of those macronutrients your body requires some of, in moderation, combined with appropriate physical activity.

 

No, they don't profit from "vending machines dispensing high-sugar confectionary drinks on demand to children" (ignoring also that children have massively higher macronutrient intake requirements during their physical development compared to us adults, and that the extra sugar is basically nothing to them provided they're also active and not sitting around playing Xbox or Playstation all day).

 

Any money Sanitarium (New Zealand Conference Association Limited) makes in New Zealand goes straight up to the Seventh Day Adventist Church, whee they use it for things like running Aged Care facilities and Schools, providing Disaster Relief, sponsoring community sport and recreation, and - yes, the one I'm not fond of either, funding "advancement of religion". Looking at their annual reports, they definitely don't profit at the group level - their income is less than expenditures. According to their annual report, Sanitarium makes SFA after paying their employees and suppliers (something I think they should keep doing thank-you-very-much).

 

As charities go, the Seventh Day Adventists are certainly not the first one I'd be having a bit of a whine about. At least their money goes on paying hard working employees, and actual beneficial stuff (I really can't even see much actual "advancement of religion" in their reports at all!) - seems like more of an axe to grind than anything else.

 

 

Spin it how you want, but it is a fact that Sanitarium are exempt income tax. 

 

You said: Any money Sanitarium (New Zealand Conference Association Limited) makes in New Zealand goes straight up to the Seventh Day Adventist Church, whee they use it for things like running Aged Care facilities and Schools, providing Disaster Relief, sponsoring community sport and recreation

 

We don't know what they do with their profits as they don't make their financial results available publicly. But as this 2012 article shows, they funneled millions of dollars into US business ventures, so its definitely not all going to church-based charities. (link here)

 

As for sponsoring community sport, many of these come with hefty entrance fees - refer recent Stuff article "Children 'priced out' of Weet-Bix TRYathlon and other sports, principal says" ... which includes the following quote: “Along with the expensive entry fee, when you turn up at the event you are bombarded by corporate sponsorship." (link here)

 

This is my last post on Sanitarium, so we'll have to agree to disagree. But, in my view, Sanitarium are using their religious status avoid paying tax on what is a very successful corporate business - a business that the church labels as existing to promote health, but, in reality, a large part comprises the pushing of sugar-based confectionery drinks into children.


Lias
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  #2733278 23-Jun-2021 15:52
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Whilst some good is done in the name of religion, so is a great deal of evil. Child abuse, war, terrorism, hatred all committed in the name of religion. 

 

The majority of religious charity I've seen is focused around either caring for it's own, or caring for others whilst trying to convert them which isn't charity in my book, it's marketing.

 

 





I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


Kyanar
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  #2733295 23-Jun-2021 17:09
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dafman:

 

You said: Any money Sanitarium (New Zealand Conference Association Limited) makes in New Zealand goes straight up to the Seventh Day Adventist Church, whee they use it for things like running Aged Care facilities and Schools, providing Disaster Relief, sponsoring community sport and recreation

 

We don't know what they do with their profits as they don't make their financial results available publicly. But as this 2012 article shows, they funneled millions of dollars into US business ventures, so its definitely not all going to church-based charities. (link here)

 

As for sponsoring community sport, many of these come with hefty entrance fees - refer recent Stuff article "Children 'priced out' of Weet-Bix TRYathlon and other sports, principal says" ... which includes the following quote: “Along with the expensive entry fee, when you turn up at the event you are bombarded by corporate sponsorship." (link here)

 

No, we do know what they do with their money because charities, like the Seventh Day Adventist Church, are required by law to publish audited financial statements.

 

And as to the rest, because sponsoring things has to make them free? The government "sponsored" my education too, my mother was still expected to front up with fees for exams, subject materials, etc. Lots of charity events cost an absolute mint - just look at the cost of watching Yellow Ribbon Fight for Life. I'd love to see events like TRYathlon free, but they are ridiculously expensive to run. 

 

dafman:

 

This is my last post on Sanitarium, so we'll have to agree to disagree. But, in my view, Sanitarium are using their religious status avoid paying tax on what is a very successful corporate business - a business that the church labels as existing to promote health, but, in reality, a large part comprises the pushing of sugar-based confectionery drinks into children.

 

 

This will also be mine. It's clear you have an axe to grind with them, and you don't mind ignoring or totally bending truth to do it.


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