Controlled hot water power failure to restore

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Gordy7

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#293405 19-Jan-2022 10:12

I have had to phone the Eastern Networks Faults 5 times since August 2021 to get my controlled hot water power restored.

Is that a common fault? Too frequent?

I have had the fault on earlier occasions for several years but did not think to take a note.

I have a Smart meter on my power board. No other meters/boxes. I have 2 phase uncontrolled supply with controlled water supply.

Underground wiring from my house to a pedestal/terminal box on the boundary and possibly where there is a ripple controlled relay.

After one phone call to Eastern Networks I heard the sound of tone pulses on a power device I have so I am assuming ripple control is still used.

I am thinking of asking Eastern Networks to improve the hot water control to my house.

Eastern Networks are quick to indicate that there will be charges if there is a fault found on my property, but no offer of compensation for inconvenience.

Gordy

My first ever network connection was a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

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Daynger

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#2853814 19-Jan-2022 21:47

Ripple relay is in the meterbox if you have one.

Gordy7

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#2853819 19-Jan-2022 22:20

Daynger:

Ripple relay is in the meterbox if you have one.

Here is my meter box...

Edit: I am guessing any Ripple relay is unlikely to be behind the mounting panel.

Gordy

My first ever network connection was a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

gregmcc

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#2853870 20-Jan-2022 05:44

No ripple relay in there,, it may be pilot control with the smart meter doing the switching (can't be 100% on that), ripple relay won't be behind the panel, although it does look like there used to be a 2nd meter there at some stage.

Pilot control works similar to ripple, the only difference is there is a ripple relay in the local neighborhood transformer rather than at each house, and a wire goes from that and daisy chains to each pillar, from there it is connected to each house which (usually) controls a relay to switch hot water on and off.

Gordy7:

Here is my meter box...

Edit: I am guessing any Ripple relay is unlikely to be behind the mounting panel.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2853872 20-Jan-2022 06:25

Some smart meters have relays onboard that allow for disconnection of loads remotely, with I assume signals sent over the cellphone network. I don't think they have onboard ripple receivers/

It looks like it would show the relays on the diagram on the label if they controlled the main supply: https://www.edmi-meters.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Mk10D-Factsheet-English.pdf

They also have an auxiliary relay that could be used to switch a contactor elsewhere. I'm not sure if anyone in NZ is actually using this for that, though.

Can we see a picture of your switchboard?

It looks like it's in a metal box. I wonder if it's having reception issues?

elbrownos

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#2853900 20-Jan-2022 08:58

Does your electricity plan actually give you a lower rate for controlled power? Mine doesn't so I had my hot water cylinder taken off controlled. The final straw was a day when the ripple control system went haywire and was turning everybody's cylinder off and on every 5 minutes for the whole day.

Gordy7

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#2853904 20-Jan-2022 09:13

gregmcc:

No ripple relay in there,, it may be pilot control with the smart meter doing the switching (can't be 100% on that), ripple relay won't be behind the panel, although it does look like there used to be a 2nd meter there at some stage.

Pilot control works similar to ripple, the only difference is there is a ripple relay in the local neighborhood transformer rather than at each house, and a wire goes from that and daisy chains to each pillar, from there it is connected to each house which (usually) controls a relay to switch hot water on and off.

I have heard the term 'Pilot Control' term used in discussion. Maybe that is what is being used at my place.

Before the smart meter was fitted in 2016 there were 3 meters.... see picture below...

Maybe I am on a daisy chain Ripple control network as I have heard on one occasion the Ripple Control pulses being applied.

I can't ask the neighbours if their hot water power is on/off as they are using gas.... maybe for the reason I am having problems with hot water power.

Gordy

My first ever network connection was a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

Gordy7

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#2853910 20-Jan-2022 09:20

SomeoneSomewhere:

Some smart meters have relays onboard that allow for disconnection of loads remotely, with I assume signals sent over the cellphone network. I don't think they have onboard ripple receivers/

It looks like it would show the relays on the diagram on the label if they controlled the main supply: https://www.edmi-meters.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Mk10D-Factsheet-English.pdf

They also have an auxiliary relay that could be used to switch a contactor elsewhere. I'm not sure if anyone in NZ is actually using this for that, though.

Can we see a picture of your switchboard?

It looks like it's in a metal box. I wonder if it's having reception issues?

My Smart Meter doesn't show the relays symbol as shown in your link, and as mentioned I have heard ripple control tones at one recent time.

I have never had 'power billing' say they can't read my smart meter and I am in a strong phone network area.

Gordy

My first ever network connection was a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

Gordy7

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#2853918 20-Jan-2022 09:27

elbrownos:

Does your electricity plan actually give you a lower rate for controlled power? Mine doesn't so I had my hot water cylinder taken off controlled. The final straw was a day when the ripple control system went haywire and was turning everybody's cylinder off and on every 5 minutes for the whole day.

Good option. My water heating rate is the same as uncontrolled rate so I might look into getting a change.

I could get a sparky to do the change somewhere - Switch board or in the Pillar box?

However the lines company might not like the change as they like to dump load a times of peak power usage.

Edit: although the kWh rate is the same for controlled and uncontrolled, the delivery charges are different. Moving HW to uncontolled would cost an extra $12 based on my last power bill of $128 total.

Gordy

My first ever network connection was a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

Scott3

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#2853919 20-Jan-2022 09:30

Yeah, 5 times in less than a year is too much.

In a different area, but I have never had issues faults with the controlled system.

Sad outcome from an environmental & grid stability point of view, but if I was in your position, I would be seriously considering having a sparky move the cylinder to an uncontrolled circuit. (And notifying the power company you now have no controlled load, so forgoing the small discount you get for being on a controlled plan).

Gordy7

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#2853926 20-Jan-2022 09:44

Scott3:

Yeah, 5 times in less than a year is too much.

In a different area, but I have never had issues faults with the controlled system.

Sad outcome from an environmental & grid stability point of view, but if I was in your position, I would be seriously considering having a sparky move the cylinder to an uncontrolled circuit. (And notifying the power company you now have no controlled load, so forgoing the small discount you get for being on a controlled plan).

Thanks for the confirmation that my fault is too frequent.

Moving the hot water feed to uncontrolled would cost me roughly $12 extra based on my last power bill which was $128 total.

I might talk to the lines company first to see if they can fix the issue. 😀

Gordy

My first ever network connection was a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

Kyanar

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#2853975 20-Jan-2022 11:27

Gordy7:

Good option. My water heating rate is the same as uncontrolled rate so I might look into getting a change.

I could get a sparky to do the change somewhere - Switch board or in the Pillar box?

However the lines company might not like the change as they like to dump load a times of peak power usage.

Edit: although the kWh rate is the same for controlled and uncontrolled, the delivery charges are different. Moving HW to uncontolled would cost an extra $12 based on my last power bill of $128 total.

The change is made at the meter, they need to disconnect the circuit from the CL meter and connect it to the UL meter (still applies if it's only one meter with two outputs).

Kind of surprised that there is no direct access to the control receiver, how do sparkies override it when they need to maintain your controlled loads?

Fun anecdote, our lines companies here are the opposite - they switch on all the controlled loads during peak times because they need astronomical power draws to soak up all the rooftop solar supply onto the network.

insane

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#2853993 20-Jan-2022 12:04

Seems wasteful, you'd think that could go into battery storage or something.

Scott3

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#2854049 20-Jan-2022 12:26

Kyanar:

The change is made at the meter, they need to disconnect the circuit from the CL meter and connect it to the UL meter (still applies if it's only one meter with two outputs).

Kind of surprised that there is no direct access to the control receiver, how do sparkies override it when they need to maintain your controlled loads?

Fun anecdote, our lines companies here are the opposite - they switch on all the controlled loads during peak times because they need astronomical power draws to soak up all the rooftop solar supply onto the network.

I have no idea what is best practice, but the change could also be made at the circuit board instead of feeding the hot water breaker with the controlled feed, it could be fed from the main switch.

Residential sparkies will know what best practice is.

In general, "Peak" time for the NZ power network is winter early mornings and evenings, when solar is contributing little to nothing.

larknz

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#2854062 20-Jan-2022 12:55

It looks like you have a 3 phase supply, which would be the reason that you originally had 3 meters. The meter you have now will be a multiphase meter which is the reason it is bigger than normal.

Gordy7

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#2854152 20-Jan-2022 14:09

larknz:

It looks like you have a 3 phase supply, which would be the reason that you originally had 3 meters. The meter you have now will be a multiphase meter which is the reason it is bigger than normal.

From gleanings and pickings - I have gathered that I may have 2 phase uncontrolled and a controlled pilot for water heating from one of those phases. I have yet to get a full understanding of what I have.

If I had 3 phase I would expect to see 420 volts between incoming phases.

Here is a snap shot of some measurements I made some time ago which tends to indicate that water heating is controlled from one of the uncontrolled phases.... somehow....

Edit: corrected snapshot.

Gordy

My first ever network connection was a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

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