I went off Musk personally after the 'pedo guy' comment.  I don't like him.  That wouldn't influence toward or away from buying one of his products though.

People who achieve the extraordinary aren't always very nice people.  And like him or loathe him Musk has pushed the achievement rate on some things that will ultimately help humanity.  I don't like his cars personally.  They are ugly and I don't think Tesla yet takes safety seriously enough.   But .. Tesla has been highly influential in taking the EV industry from niche token-clean-vehicles to mainstream.  Musk's businesses seem to be taking the world in a better direction.  I don't think the same could be said about Zuckerburg or Bezos.

I think Musk is probably a bit of a knob as a human being, but he does good work.  It used to be that we separated people from their work.  Now, there seems to me to be a tendency to judge the work by an assessment of the person's morality (using an ever-changing contemporary standard, retrospectively applied). 

MikeAqua:

 

I went off Musk personally after the 'pedo guy' comment.  I don't like him.  That wouldn't influence toward or away from buying one of his products though.

 

People who achieve the extraordinary aren't always very nice people.  And like him or loathe him Musk has pushed the achievement rate on some things that will ultimately help humanity.  I don't like his cars personally.  They are ugly and I don't think Tesla yet takes safety seriously enough.   But .. Tesla has been highly influential in taking the EV industry from niche token-clean-vehicles to mainstream.  Musk's businesses seem to be taking the world in a better direction.  I don't think the same could be said about Zuckerburg or Bezos.

 

I think Musk is probably a bit of a knob as a human being, but he does good work.  It used to be that we separated people from their work.  Now, there seems to me to be a tendency to judge the work by an assessment of the person's morality (using an ever-changing contemporary standard, retrospectively applied). 

 

Well said!

Rikkitic:

 

MikeAqua:

 

I went off Musk personally after the 'pedo guy' comment.  I don't like him.  That wouldn't influence toward or away from buying one of his products though.

 

People who achieve the extraordinary aren't always very nice people.  And like him or loathe him Musk has pushed the achievement rate on some things that will ultimately help humanity.  I don't like his cars personally.  They are ugly and I don't think Tesla yet takes safety seriously enough.   But .. Tesla has been highly influential in taking the EV industry from niche token-clean-vehicles to mainstream.  Musk's businesses seem to be taking the world in a better direction.  I don't think the same could be said about Zuckerburg or Bezos.

 

I think Musk is probably a bit of a knob as a human being, but he does good work.  It used to be that we separated people from their work.  Now, there seems to me to be a tendency to judge the work by an assessment of the person's morality (using an ever-changing contemporary standard, retrospectively applied). 

 

 

Well said!

 

 

 

Mirrors my opinions almost exactly.

Kookoo:

 

Not sure what all the fuss is about. Musk is a brilliant businessman. A money maker out of this world. As such he's greedy, arrogant, morally bankrupt and obscenely rich.

 

In this he's no different to multiple other billionaires with perhaps the exception of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, and even there I have to go by their public personas and philanthropy work.

 

What I take issue with is people admiring his engineering/invention skills, his leadership, vision, or his politics, none of which is anything to be proud of. If you admire Musk, just admit what he is and what you admire him for.

 

I'm not entirely sure other billionaires still bother after getting their throne to walk around the office in a teeshirt on hardly any sleep and actively changed the design of a 'thing' based on revelations on in an interview. He sure seems a bit more hands on than them being also the lead Engineer. 

(Theres multiple in the series and latest goes up the tower)

MikeAqua:

 

I went off Musk personally after the 'pedo guy' comment.  I don't like him.  That wouldn't influence toward or away from buying one of his products though.

 

People who achieve the extraordinary aren't always very nice people.  And like him or loathe him Musk has pushed the achievement rate on some things that will ultimately help humanity.  I don't like his cars personally.  They are ugly and I don't think Tesla yet takes safety seriously enough.   But .. Tesla has been highly influential in taking the EV industry from niche token-clean-vehicles to mainstream.  Musk's businesses seem to be taking the world in a better direction.  I don't think the same could be said about Zuckerburg or Bezos.

 

I think Musk is probably a bit of a knob as a human being, but he does good work.  It used to be that we separated people from their work.  Now, there seems to me to be a tendency to judge the work by an assessment of the person's morality (using an ever-changing contemporary standard, retrospectively applied). 

 

When it comes to prominent CEOs and owners, they personify the brand value. Musk is as much of a brand as Tesla is, in fact, he is Tesla. You seem to be saying that your purchase decisions are based purely on product quality and in no way on brand values.

As to the ever-changing morality standards - the last time I checked, Musk and us were living in the same time period. It's not like he's Henry Ford reborn in 21st century and being unfairly judged for his antisemitism, anti-union and anti-immigration stances from over 100 years ago.

Kookoo:

 

When it comes to prominent CEOs and owners, they personify the brand value. Musk is as much of a brand as Tesla is, in fact, he is Tesla. You seem to be saying that your purchase decisions are based purely on product quality and in no way on brand values.

 

As to the ever-changing morality standards - the last time I checked, Musk and us were living in the same time period. It's not like he's Henry Ford reborn in 21st century and being unfairly judged for his antisemitism, anti-union and anti-immigration stances from over 100 years ago.

 

I disagree Musk/Telsa are synonymous. At least not for me. I would buy a Telsa in spite of him being the CEO, certainly not because he is CEO.

I personally believe he should not be CEO. It is my belief he devalues his company and the Telsa brand almost every time he opens his mouth.

Kookoo:

 

When it comes to prominent CEOs and owners, they personify the brand value. Musk is as much of a brand as Tesla is, in fact, he is Tesla. You seem to be saying that your purchase decisions are based purely on product quality and in no way on brand values.

 

This is a thing amongst car companies, a really big thing. I know the names of CEOs of car companies for cars I'll never drive - mostly American and either GM or Ford. 

MikeAqua:

 

I went off Musk personally after the 'pedo guy' comment.  I don't like him.  That wouldn't influence toward or away from buying one of his products though.

 

People who achieve the extraordinary aren't always very nice people.  And like him or loathe him Musk has pushed the achievement rate on some things that will ultimately help humanity.  I don't like his cars personally.  They are ugly and I don't think Tesla yet takes safety seriously enough.   But .. Tesla has been highly influential in taking the EV industry from niche token-clean-vehicles to mainstream.  Musk's businesses seem to be taking the world in a better direction.  I don't think the same could be said about Zuckerburg or Bezos.

 

I think Musk is probably a bit of a knob as a human being, but he does good work.  It used to be that we separated people from their work.  Now, there seems to me to be a tendency to judge the work by an assessment of the person's morality (using an ever-changing contemporary standard, retrospectively applied). 

 

I disagree that he does good work. He spent billions of Tesla dollars buying environmentally cataclysmic ponzi Bitcoins - he may as well have added internal combustion engines to Tesla vehicles, it would have had the same environmental impact. 

Kookoo:

 

You seem to be saying that your purchase decisions are based purely on product quality and in no way on brand values.

 

As to the ever-changing morality standards - the last time I checked, Musk and us were living in the same time period. 

 

I may be unconsciously making some brand based choices, but I don't consciously consider brand.  However, that line gets blurred into the product around the topic of aesthetics or where a product attribute (e.g. quality) is also a brand value.  

With morality standards, you are right that Musk is contemporary and should be able to adhere to current standards.  Although, those morals are evolving so quickly, it's probably possible to say/do something acceptable today, that will be unacceptable in 2 years time.  Setting that aside, my main point is that we used to separate people from their work and we do this less and less.  Human's being fallible, and creative types often being particularly fallible that's a slippery slope.  

I don't think we should judge works by the behaviour of their creators.  I really like my car.  If the person who lead its development turns out to be a criminal, I'll keep and still like the car.  I still have Thriller on my playlist too.

If the work itself is harmful, that's a different matter IMO.  For example, I think most social media platforms are harmful, therefore I don't use them.

MikeAqua:

 

I don't think we should judge works by the behaviour of their creators.  I really like my car.  If the person who lead its development turns out to be a criminal, I'll keep and still like the car.  I still have Thriller on my playlist too.

 

If the work itself is harmful, that's a different matter IMO.  For example, I think most social media platforms are harmful, therefore I don't use them.

 

This is actually true for most things. Many billionaires are morally bankrupt, but have holdings in companies that make amazing products. 

Musicians - many of my favourite artists are (or have been) drug addicts and degenerates. Morally, I shouldn't support them, but I don't enjoy their music for their politics or morals. I listen to the tunes. I enjoy the melodies. 

I have little to no opinion on Musk as a human (or android or whatever he turns out to be), but a lot of his product is pretty cool. 

MikeAqua:

 

I don't think we should judge works by the behaviour of their creators.  I really like my car.  If the person who lead its development turns out to be a criminal, I'll keep and still like the car.  I still have Thriller on my playlist too.

 

If the work itself is harmful, that's a different matter IMO.  For example, I think most social media platforms are harmful, therefore I don't use them.

 

There are two issues issue with this approach, to my mind. First - that a "creator" is also in this case the direct benefactor. By buying his products, be it a Tesla or that overpriced flamethrower he peddled 3 or 4 years ago, you directly support his behaviour, ideological stances, etc. The second is inherent to the first - what is the desired impact of his behaviour?

As (hopefully) clearer example - take Mike Lindell, the founder of "My Pillow" and an American far-right nut case conspiracy theorist. The man uses his fortune to peddle conspiracy theories that have destabilised the US democracy and have the potential to affect the current world order. Knowing that's what the money is used for, would you feel comfortable buying a "My Pillow" product based on quality alone?

I see there's an open letter circulating at Space X from the staff - basically saying that Musk does more harm than good with his Tweets and attitudes and general attitudes. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/06/16/spacex-employees-reportedly-condemn-elon-musks-behavior-in-open-letter/?sh=5e4e42ab7588

Here's the Forbes reporting on it. 

TL;DR

TOPLINE

An open letter was reportedly posted in an employee chat channel at SpaceX on Wednesday that flames CEO Elon Musk for recent behavior that it describes as a “distraction” and an “embarrassment,” and calls for the company to “hold all leadership equally accountable.”

KEY FACTS

The Verge, which says it reviewed the letter, says it claims Musk’s behavior on Twitter is “harmful” to SpaceX and that every tweet he sends is a “de facto public statement by the company.”

 The letter, addressed to SpaceX President Gwynne Shotwell, was shared on a SpaceX Microsoft Teams channel with over 2,600 employees, Verge reports.

 The Verge said it was unable to tell who wrote the letter or how many employees signed it.

Kookoo:

 

There are two issues issue with this approach, to my mind. First - that a "creator" is also in this case the direct benefactor. By buying his products, be it a Tesla or that overpriced flamethrower he peddled 3 or 4 years ago, you directly support his behaviour, ideological stances, etc. The second is inherent to the first - what is the desired impact of his behaviour?

 

As (hopefully) clearer example - take Mike Lindell, the founder of "My Pillow" and an American far-right nut case conspiracy theorist. The man uses his fortune to peddle conspiracy theories that have destabilised the US democracy and have the potential to affect the current world order. Knowing that's what the money is used for, would you feel comfortable buying a "My Pillow" product based on quality alone?

 

The way I see it is that society has mechanisms to sanction people for inappropriate behaviour: Prosecution, convictions, fines, imprisonment etc.  I'm not very interested in being another layer on top of that.  Partly because I think it's a priggish thing to do.  Partly because I can't be bothered.  

Using Mike Lindell as an example:  I've never heard of him.  Assuming I want to buy one of his pillows, if I'm also to be a moral arbiter of his conduct outside of the specific domain of pillows, I'd have to research him, understand his views and maybe then research the subject matter those view pertain to, to make sure he really is behaving unethically.     Should I do that for the directors of the company too or maybe the senior management?

Stuff that. What a dreary and negative thing to spend my time on.  Life is too short and my to do list is too long.  Each to their own.  That's just not how I want to spend the remaining years I have on this rock. I'm more interested in the creation of opportunities.

Now if the product was produced illegally, that would be another issue.  For example; While Uber was operating illegally in NZ, by not licensing their drivers properly, I didn't use them.

MikeAqua:

 

The way I see it is that society has mechanisms to sanction people for inappropriate behaviour: Prosecution, convictions, fines, imprisonment etc.  I'm not very interested in being another layer on top of that.  Partly because I think it's a priggish thing to do.  Partly because I can't be bothered.  

 

Using Mike Lindell as an example:  I've never heard of him.  Assuming I want to buy one of his pillows, if I'm also to be a moral arbiter of his conduct outside of the specific domain of pillows, I'd have to research him, understand his views and mand aybe then research the subject matter those view pertain to, to make sure he really is behaving unethically.     Should I do that for the directors of the company too or maybe the senior management?

 

Stuff that. What a dreary and negative thing to spend my time on.  Life is too short and my to do list is too long.  Each to their own.  That's just not how I want to spend the remaining years I have on this rock. I'm more interested in the creation of opportunities.

 

Now if the product was produced illegally, that would be another issue.  For example; While Uber was operating illegally in NZ, by not licensing their drivers properly, I didn't use them.

 

Partly I think you are partly right and I partly agree with you. The other part says that you can acquire a fairly well-informed opinion of someone by relying on credible sources so you don't have to research it in detail yourself. You don't have to spend a lot of your time on it unless you want to. Example: I have never met Donald Trump but I'm pretty sure he is a monumental dick and I would never stay in one of his hotels.